distribution of knowledge

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Distribution of Knowledge

Conversations and Interviews Salzburg 2008

Iva Kova & Nataa Tepavevi


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1. PrefaceDistribution of knowledge 5

2. East & WestDetecting structure and issues to be dabated 9First Conversation 17

3. Immaterial works of artOutlines of the folowing topics 29Second Conversation 33

4. Interview 53

Impressum 61

Contents

Iva Kova & Nataa Tepavevi

Iva Kova & Nataa TepaveviIva Kova & Nataa Tepavevi with Dan and Lia Perjovschi

Iva Kova & Nataa TepaveviIva Kova & Nataa Tepavevi with Dan and Lia Perjovschi

Iva Kova & Nataa Tepavevi with Glsun Karamustafa


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Preface

Distribution of knowledgeIva Kova & Nataa Tepavevi

This work was conceived during the rst week of the workshop Ex-panded Drawing: From illustration to installation that was led byDan Perjovschi at the Summer Academy Salzburg. The conversationsstarted as a process of getting to know each other and continuedtrough attempts to dene our positions. We havent really thoughtof ourselves as representatives of our nations, the rst thing thatcomes to mind when you think of Croatian and Serbian artist work-ing together. After a couple of introductory meetings we decided tostart documenting our conversations and use these as materials forthe later piece. In time we have exhausted themes we were both en-gaged with and needed to nd the material over which the discussionswould be held. We have concluded it could be interesting to ask Danand Lia Perjovschi whose workshop we attended, as well as GlsunKaramustafa who led a parallel workshop, if they would like to talk tous about issues we believed were the common ground for all of us.The questions of the common discussions with the whole workshopgroup were dealing with different aspects of functioning as an artist(visibility of different groups of individuals who engage with arts) andwe wanted to raise specic questions about the expectations imposedon the artists who come from the East. This issue is frequently dis-

cussed throughout different artistic as well as theoretical practicesduring the period of the last ten to fteen years. Knowing that, butstill being interested in what specic artists thought of this issue, westarted our rst talk about this theme.


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This ambivalent position of the Eastern European artist is somethingthat artists both ght against and benet from. We were interested inLias, Dans and Glsuns personal experiences to possibly nd furtherdirections each of us would like to take in the future. The position ofthe emerging artist from the East is a well-dened category, whichenables you to enter the international art world. At the start of our

careers these parameters are obvious and transparent. Do we wantto enter?Motivations and aims, of both documented and undocumented discus-sions during the three week period, was the production of knowl-edge; namely education as means of production and distribution ofknowledge. Therefore, this is an attempt to analyze, discuss, redenefrom the standpoints of participants in conversation, as well as to en-courage critical, radical, open or self-organized education in the eldsof art. In this way education replaces the artwork or even becomes thework itself. Self-education through a dialog offers the opportunity fora non-hierarchical, self-motorized learning process.


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East & West

Detecting structure and issues to be debatedIva Kova & Nataa Tepavevi

NT: How will we structure the conversation?IK: Maybe we should start by remembering what we have concludedso far. First the two of us talk and later we will conductinterviews after having come up with issues we wouldlike to discuss. The idea was that the most interesting thing hereis the fact that we can come together and discuss questions we areinterested in, with interesting people.NT: Maybe it would be best if we lead these conversations frequently

because this way we can get further into discussion. We can detect themoments in which we are inuenced by our surrounding or momentswhere we are learning something new.IK: Dan and Lia have reacted to the initial idea of the two of us workingtogether with ridicule, like we couldnt have been more obvious.NT: And they were asking what was thatwhat bonds us together. Is itan intimate moment, in the sense of knowing each other from the past,is it geographical or is it maybe the language?IK: We can talk about us as coming from the similar geo political po-sition from the East. I feel that similarly we have an urge to explainthe context, not only that which is surrounding our work as such butour whole background.

NT: Are we explaining our position because we think we are not rec-ognized?IK: I dont think that is a characteristic of people coming from a speciccontext. I have noticed that people from the US have an urge to explain


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themselves. I guess this is so because of the antipathy to the US atthe moment. People I have met usually have an urge to declare them-selves instantly as against their countrys foreign policy. So I think thisis a rather common phenomenon. In our case I think it is because weare considered less cultivated in a way, and that makes us emphasisethat we are educated and are able to adept even though we are notcoming from the centre.NT: We, in a way, admit that we are in a bad position, but on the otherhand we say: OK, though were in a bad position economically we areas informed as you and we are not primitive. We are just not westenough.IK: We also use this as a positive mark. I think it can work to improveour self-respect. It can be like saying; I come from worse circumstancesthan you and look, I am no worse than you are. I think we empha-sise the negativities as a way of afrming ourselves.NT: Yes but do you think that this is a way of seducing the others: rstyou need a scholarship and than you come here Or lets make it moregeneral; rst you start with producing the empathy by saying that youcouldnt even come if They didnt help you and then you say; I have

no other problems except nancial ones.IK: We are beforehand marked as lazy. Living off scholarshipsand not really earning money is interpreted as lazi-ness. I myself always try to function very actively and here I haveto question myself if I am lazy.NT: This is, again, looking for satisfaction in your own misery. I amlazy because I cannot be engaged in a country without a system. Forinstance plays on this card.IK: I dont think so. He was doing these works in Yugoslavia and theywere done before he had institutionalized himself internationally. Idont think its the same issue.NT: Lazy, not as the lack of spirit, but as being without strict commit-

ments or clichs under which he would be bound to function if he wasan artist from the West. Lets use him as a representative of what anestablished artist from Eastern Europe looks like and does. Simply,the way and the tempo he is functioning by are in complete contrast

to somebody from the West.IK: I think it has originated primarily from the factthat we have no art market. We just dont have a strict sys-tem to which we have to answer. This makes us maybe freer in a waybut less self secure. Thats what makes us so engaged with a lotof different things at the same time. For instance I could produce alot of paintings but what would I do with them? I have stoppedpainting regularly when I started questioning myselfabout the reason for producing such a big amount ofart objects. This can be interpreted as laziness but if you dont getany recognition or satisfaction there is no need to work.NT: Absolutely, because if you produce just for the sake of producingyou are working against yourself. It can make you consider your ownwork as trash because it is just vanishing. This work wont beuctuating through cultural channels. It will not beexhibited, or in any way contextualized. I think there wasa work made by artists from the , its a performance piece,kind of a street action in which two men are walking and telling oneanother Admit that youre an artist! At one moment they start to ght

and the people move away and run. They are playing with this notionof being exotic. Not only are they recognized as different in relationto the West, they are different from their own surrounding.IK: I dont know about these works.NT: They are not even accepted in the place they come from. They arenot trying to work towards educating the milieu; they are workingtowards, kind of, primitively pointing a nger at themselves.IK: I dont think, from what you have said, that they are pointing anger at them selves. I feel they are making the absurd situation evenmore absurd and therefore it has to do with pointing a nger at thesociety as well. When you point at yourself and state: I am shit, thisis a very strong statement that can make people think about their own

judgments. Can there be an excuse to have such opinions about theother. I think this can be an effective way although I see that people,on the other hand, believe what they are said. This is a problem

with irony; you can never know where it can take the


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viewer. So it can denitely be interpreted as one or as the other.NT: They themselves have said, when answering the questions abouttheir work, they foremost interpret the sentence Admit that you arethe artist! as Admit that you are poor! because in this environment,to declare yourself an artist, at the same time means you are on thestreet. Artist as a profession does not exist.IK: I believe it is the same in the West as well. This opinion was sta-bilized during Romanticism and modernist period and it has becomea common comprehension of an artist. Though there are more thana couple of movies from the 80s on portraying some unnamed richand popular artists who are living in huge lofts in New York, maybeit is not such a common comprehension in the West,I dont know.NT:There exists no position that would allow an artistto regulate daily expenses. And what about todays question;where do ideas come from? Artists, in a way, know what they have todo. It is just necessary to channel yourself through a certain demanda market is imposing on you. The artists are here so they would, withtheir own presence, represent an artist that thinks in a certain way

and this way of thinking is recognized as art.IK: I nd the question; where do ideas come from? funny. I think thatprofessional artist cannot say that by understanding the process ofhow they conceived one piece they can conclude how to create art, oreven less give somebody else the solution.NT:But I think that this is an issue because the people

who are professional artists should have a response.If we have an artist that doesnt know what he or she is doing, thepublic that absolutely doesnt know, and the critic or theoretician whohas to read out the meaning, than what?IK: That is not what Im talking about. Im talking about how to nd anidea, in a sense of what is somebodys personal trigger. This receipt

doesnt exist. We have our own triggers and I can say what mine isor was at one certain point of my life. As artists from Balkans we areunied with this subject matter that refers to our prob-lematic background, and this is a stereotype that, in

the end, we indulge. Looking at contemporary art from the Westit is less dealing with problems because there often dont exist realisticones. But on the other hand I believe our position is legitimate, we arediscussing issues we are really dealing with, because in some sense,art has a lot do with an intimate experience of things.I dont like the idea of choosing a subject matter; nd a subject andthan deal with it.NT: So you think that there has to be a catch that is a part of an inti-mate slip so you canIK: Well I think we are connected to things that are able to leave animpact on us. Maybe we can have intimate reactions to the society ingeneral, but in general, not to choose one For instance some yearsago at the , there were three works on the subjectof the bombing of Belgrade and out of these three people; there wasone lets say Italian, one Spanish and the third maybe Serbian. Idont know, Sarajevo was everybodys what? It seems to meas a war tourism. You come to a war zone and see what prob-lems there are. Usually this is degrading the victims. I was listeningto . Shes an artist with Cuban origins but she was raised

in America, and she is dealing with the issues of identity. As a child,when the other part of her family ed Cuba, she was in a better po-sition because she has mastered the language and was teaching herrelatives English. She is now embarrassed because she had thoughtof herself as being better than them.NT: We were talking about performance and I denitely think thatperformance is the only medium that can, in a way, be observed as anintervention into society. Everything else seems more as anintimate need to leave a trace; it is so with drawingas with any other media.IK: I dont think so. I think people dont have an instant opinion abouta performance either. For me, to read about these things in a book,

means a lot. I nd interpretation important. Contextual-izing of performance, or any other art, through theoretical discoursecan give me a wider view on the situation and the meanings thatcould be read out of the work. Experiencing the performance


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by participating doesnt incorporate the before andafter. You know the before but it is not systematically organized,in a way. And then, when you read the interpretation of somebodysperformance that was done in 60s or 70s, you read about the culturebefore and the culture after and the culture at the moment. Thatswhy it is important to know about Romania before getting to knowDans and Lias works. I think it is important where you come fromalthough there are works that dont need context so badly. Probablythat is because they are canonical pieces, but if they werent canoni-cal they would have to contextualize themselves as the other. Ourprofessor once said talking about that there will bea lot of Western artists and a couple of Russian ones

who will be remembered as a proof that diversity inart exists.NT: But do you think he was recognized as an artist because he is, in away, a precise reection of what the Eastern artist should be like?IK: I dont think so; I think there are other, much more precise reectionsof these stereotypes. I think these people worked a lot and put a lotof effort in what they have been doing.

NT: They are good but the limitations most certainly exist.IK: They do but I think there are people who put a lot effort in theirwork and succeed. Simply, things that you may think shouldnt be doneare maybe the ones that, if you have an urge to do them, should bedone. I think I must sound very modernist.NT: I think you do because it is distributing hope that the art is rais-ing from the artist him / herself and we are, in a way, conscious thatwe trust the art historian and not the artist. We dont believesomebody is making art because each individual isimpressed by this work but because institutions that

matter have said so.IK: I am not talking about the quintessential of art, but how to function

in the art world. I think this is very similar to the rules of business. SoI am not talking about the modernistic renunciation, I am not talkingabout essentialisms. I think we need some kind of faiththat what we are doing participates in the society in

any way. Maybe the reason why so few art students stay in theeld of arts after they graduate is because the position of the artistis always moved away from the society.NT: At Dans and Lias presentation, one of the rst sentences Dan saidwas: I think the artist is important for the society.


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First ConversationDan and Lia Perjovschi

LP: So introduce the topic.DP: Do you have a topic?NT: We have several ones, but we dont have a topic that we would

like to discuss as a nal goal. We want to use the temporal sequence of time as the material. Our structure wouldbe Flux.

IK: We thought that the best we can get out of a workshop of a con-

ceptual kind is a possibility to have discussions, to nd out other

peoples ideas. Basically, we want to gain knowledge and producesomething that has to do with coming to this knowledge.

DP: I think thats correct. But on the other hand, if you have just anoral interaction it will seem transitory. I think discussions have to bexed, made into a text, printed out. If you produce somethingthat doesnt have a shape, it can go in all directionsand at the same time nowhere.You have to have a certaingoal and keep this goal in mind. Think how to x this goal; otherwiseyou will keep talking all your life.IK: Thats why we reect on what we have been talking about. When

we come back to the conversation and lis ten to it again we can decide

what we want to discuss next and what doesnt interest us anymore.

Maybe this will lead us to one unique subject matter, maybe not. Thepoint is that we have a timeframe and that this timeframe will be

decisive in what gets included and what doesnt.

NT: First we want to explain our methodology We were having con-


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versations for the last few days. At the beginning we werent docu-

menting. We started our conversations with the position of the artist

and with our geo political connections.

DP: Is the question then what the position of an artist should be, or?IK: Thats one of the questions that we want to keep for later. The

point is thatwe have started by discussing our individualpositions in this context here.DP: So you mean a person from Belgrade and a person from Zagreb,or?

IK: We have started by talking about the countries we come from and

their differences, but than we have switched to talking about the

position of an artists from any of these countries when going to the

West. One of the topics we wanted to stress is what kind of a position

is the artist taking when acting very directly. When you approach,

lets say, the public in a direct manner, that could be interpreted as

rude. Could this give you more freedom? By repeating maybe you

would gain even more freedom.

NT: We were talking about some artists who come from the East and

are already recognized in exchange with the West.

IK: This is allowing you to repeat this kind of behavior, but basicallyyou are playing with the same exoticism, you are fullling what is

expected from you.

DP: And do you see this as good or as bad? I mean, areyou criticizing this or?IK: We are not criticizing.

DP: Do you recognize it as a strategy?LP: They are observing, and those are the issues to bedebated.DP: Because there were certain categories and they shift in time. Therewas a moment when this kind of statement from the East was very in-teresting. It is not as interesting now. There are artist who prot from

this kind of environment. They relocated themselves to the West andthey either try to change their language and usuallythey disappear, or constantly come back and take thesubject matter from the initial country or environ-

ment and redistribute it in anew culture. Some of them can dothat better, some of them do that ina very, not boring, but in a very im-mediate way.LP: From my point of view everythingdone by a person that can touch peo-ple in general is successful or useful.Its making us aware what we havein our mind; what kind of ideas. Soimagination is individual, maybe meditationworks toward the inside, but it is also general.DP: There is no local. There is just the international scene. Youcannot project yourself as being the local hero, do you want that?LP: No, no.DP: So you want an international kind of audience. Internationalat this moment means the West, because institutions

with stronger positions are here. So, they are trying to rec-ognize what they feel is good from the other side.

LP: What they can use.DP: And thats normal. Besides, they are not stupid. They are some-times condemned as acting like neocolonialists, but I dont think it isso. Sometimes I perceive the criticism more neocolonialist. I have tobe critical and theoretical in order to You know, the good positionbecomes imposed on you. But when you nd yourself nego-tiating between the two systems, this fracture line be-comes interesting. Now, geo politically you are on the marginfrom this side, which is very interesting. If you enter the system onthe other side, off the margin, this position wont be very interestinganymore. So at this moment you benet from this ambiguity whichis good! We constantly, in this part of the world, complain that there

is no market. I think thats good because when it comes it wont beexactly what we have imagined. Just yesterday we were talking howit was possible in 1993 to do performances in the street, we did nothave this knowledge the apparatus, but we were capable to do that.


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You did not think of showing it in a gallery. You did that because youthought it was relevant for your context. And now its not possible, or itis very complicated, because the public space is occupied byspectacle, beer festivals, and theater on the streets,commercials for toothbrushes or whatever. So, I thinkthis fracture line is interesting, and negotiations between the two,until the warm and the cold mix and they become very at mediocre.So we have to prot out of this.LP: But I think it is important to enjoy what you do. It rstly has tomake sense to us or we wont be able to nd motivation. Who will be-lieve you or who will believe us in what we propose if we dont believeourselves. It is very difcult to talk about issues without having clearexamples. But if we are honest, in the end we are all humans with twohands and two legs. For sure we have similar experience, more or less.That means that our mind is, lets say, global.DP: But there is this very simple phenomenon, our countries are intransition. They are translating from one thing to another, and thisprocess is very interesting because it is full of contradiction and in-

justice. If you only witness to all this you already have something. If

you just document the streets of your cities it will beinteresting how changes come.LP: You have to x a lot of things at home. If you go to a city hall forinstance, asking for space, being freelance, this will take up a lot ofyour time. You knock on doors and become exhausted, you dont un-derstand anything, and tomorrow you have to start again. So, all thesestruggles to make things right, legal and normal. This can become anartwork. If we dont have time to draw we can transform this struggleinto an artwork.DP: But when you say rude, what does it mean?IK: Seemingly primitive. When you look at some of the artist or theo-reticians from the East, how they talk, what their accent is like. It

seems like they are over exaggerating this Russian accent in theirEnglish.

DP: Because they want to seem extraordinary, exoticor driven by instincts?

IK: Maybe, or it could be a statement in a sense. But it doesnt mat-

ter; Im just saying that this kind of person is instantly recognized

as Balcanic.

DP: But think about when he let himself be shot thatwas pretty rude right? Or when he let him self be crucied on a car.That was one of the ways in the 60s it happened to us in the 80s.LP: I dont mind rudeness. These people can be authentic. But I amnot like that, so do I have a problem? I dont think so. I like intelligentthings. I am fascinated by intelligent people. I dont want to be forcedto smash in order to t in. In art we have to surprise all the time, sowhat will be next. I dont want to impress all the time. Ifeel, and maybe we shear this feeling of being pressured into makingsome kind of a political statement.DP: Thats what they are saying; this kind of visual, very primalidentication of the Balkans, or the East, as something really brutal.DP: But what nobody mentions when these things are discussed is aperformance by when she entered the theater with thegun. So, it was another view, not similar at all to lets say butit was also a very iconic image; about this kind of feminism. Undeni-

ably it is also not as brutal as Kuligs but very powerful. This wasin the 70s.LP: In the 90s we have witnessed how the East tried tocommunicate with the West mainly by saying how it ismore politically engaged than the West. A lot of curatorswho wanted to say something stuck to these clichs and underlinedthem with some works that were available. Maybe that was ne forthat moment, but actually I dont agree with this. I dont except it. Thisis a manipulation that comes back at us, and in a way modies theseworks. I have never recognized myself in that kind of works.DP: But in 1993 you were smashing dolls on the walls, you dont smashthem any longer. In all these traumatic experiences we were kick-

ing ourselves, kicking everybody. It was like a rage of expression,screaming out. And this went down, it was like a stage. And thanit melted to a more theoretical, more rened kind ofart. Maybe it is coming back now with the new generation of artist


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who want to be very visible, very aggressive sometimes. Its like ascream hey we are here now.LP: But now, I have to admit, its more complicated. I am more inter-ested in what people do, not how they smash things to make me lookat them. I am interested in how they manage their life, doing theirart in these conditions where you dont have the white cube and youdont have professional critics, theoreticians, art historians or teach-ers. How? What do we do? I speak about me, in Bucharest, being anartist and traveling abroad, but also I want to make my living as aprofessional. I want to feel at home in my hometown.DP: The story is this: in the East you see exhibiting, and inthe West it is , so i t is an exchange. The things wedont know and we are fascinated by; we import them, even 30 yearslater. Rock bands are coming to play for us when they are fat. But in thesame time foundation is in New York but not in Belgrade,not where she grew up. So how come? It is this kind of exchange ifthe West found that relevant, thats it. But the local scene didnt, sowhat to do?LP: Change the local scene! I mean there is a problem.

DP: But this is the reality after all, whether we like it or not, somethings are possible in our context and others are not. Still, in this verymoment there are much more possibilities on the other side. And theconcentration it is not only money and fame. Its justpure possibility. And on the local scenes, there are more andmore new generations of bureaucrats coming, just to annoy you, pullyou down and whatever.LP: Its interesting with the , how thoughtful and very sim-ple, but in the same time so complicated, was what she had donebefore.DP: There is a certain corruption out there, the corruption of money.Its questionable if people are even aware of whats happening. It may

be some kind of statement that you are very powerful when you areyoung, because you dont lose anything, and you try. Then you becomemore cautious when you are older and you try to preserve your posi-tion I dont know.But after a while there is a visible kind of melting

down of these kinds of gures. Not all of them.DP: There is a pressure of the certain system at thecertain level and a certain interest to castrate, to cut

your discourse, make it convenient, nice, make it sell-able and showable. So yes there is this pressure and some art-ists are collapsing under this pressure, and some do not, but it is alsodependant on the type of art you do. You have to survive your famethough; you have to survive your moment when its a reference mo-ment in the art history. You have to survive it somehow, and if youdont have a new fuel I dont know.LP: You know while trying to solve some local prob-lems, you may nd that they are also the global ones.Only names are different.DP: But this process in your country is not only a process of normaliza-tion but an establishment of a system as well, and you can be a partof it, and this is interesting because it is being built in front of youreyes. On the other hand you can be sucked in, you can be caught inthis local problem.LP: I was thinking; why we dont want to see things in another way?

And how should we do this? By force we cannot, force brings force.The cynical or ironic, or subversive way, people may not get. Then ad-dress, with good intention the question. Thats why I like your idea,there is something very nice in your project and also a bit sad, afterthe rapture you are coming together to talk. Because, in few yearsfrom now, none of this will count, there wont be any borders.DP: But imagine this because you come to the question. Imagine this;this kind of art scene that would put a pressure on you to stage boxght, dont jump, just imagine, this is the way they think its verysimple and they want an immediate metaphor, who wins, or something.This can be advertised and can be on the rst page of the magazine, but we dont want to do that, right? We dont want to get

to this immediate stage, rst page or whatever. Thats probablyour challenge now, how to think the second or thethird layer and go more profound what do you say?DP: I want to tell you, from a pragmatically point of view, if you go and


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stay in Berlin you are losing something. The fact that you are comingfrom Belgrade and Zagreb gives you an extra something. This is avery rude statement but thats true. Like Lia said about feminism; itgives you something but it also limits you. Because it gives you a frameand you dont want that frame. Thats the game.NT:But if you are always in between and moving fromone place, from one position to another?LP: I am concentrated on being in between.DP: Yes you can do it nowadays, be located here and there. You canmigrate between two or three places.LP: Actually staying at home might be better not in Berlin. In Berlinalone you might be the 30001st artist. And otherwise you canbe a translator for these two spaces.DP: Since you grew up in this context you have knowledge about it.So you can speak about it.LP: And you learn when you travel between places so you can trans-fer information from one place to another and you can x things athome.DP: You know all these stories about feminism and positions; we can

apply this very well in the society in which we grew up because theyare more visible there. In the West it is not so clear any more becausethey are masters of disguise, you cant recognize a problem there, butin our countries you see them all around.LP: When we, the former East, will learn to translateinto words the trauma we had, then we will be able tocreate a society that will function properly.DP: In the West when you nish the academy you have to insert your-self in a layer of the market and people are terried when you tell themthey have to nd a gallery. And here you can hang around and have asmall job here and there and you still have time to be what they callnave, slowly creating your own discourse.

LP: It is good to be romantic. I heard about a group of artists whocall themselves . They are saying that postmodernismcame after modernism putting modernism to irony, rejecting it, in away joking with it. So, they want to say what is wrong with believing

in progress and in human kind. What went so wrong with modernism?We had such great ideas, and its good to think and to be romantic, tobelieve in humanism. Our ideas shape the reality, shapethe chances we have.DP: You have to observe the situation in which you are, as clear aspossible. I mean, you have advantages and disadvantages here, whereyou are now, but you will have them wherever you go. You have to bevery precise in reading the place you are in. I think the best solutionis to navigate between the two, because than we can compare, youcan prot out of combining these two environments, but this can betraumatic if you keep living like this for too long.LP: It makes you old.DP: When we started they called what we did the alter-native art and for the alternative art there was onlyspace in cellars, places out of the center. But we wantedthe center! So where should we go? To New York. We wanted to gowhere the discussion is.NT: But I dont have a chance to choose. If I want to go somewhere

I need a visa, but I dont have a student status anymore and I dont

have a job, so I cannot get a visa. I cannot simply decide: I want togo there, and be able to do that. I just wanted to say that belonging

is somehow bad for me. At the moment I dont nd it positive, but I

know that on the other hand it is necessary.

DP: We had this discussion a little bit earlier; when you have the schoolfor an enemy. You have an enemy and thats good! You have anenemy, you have a focus, you are concentrated, andwhen the enemy is gone, when you dont have the structure you wereprepared to ght against; is it maybe about identifying the new sub-

ject?IK: From my point of view the problem is when you always need an

enemy. I always needed an opponent. I dont want to be person who

is ghting all the time.LP: I can distinguish two kinds of people, the ones who are comfort-able like Dan more or less everywhere, and others are totally restless,unhappy even in New York. I am one of those.


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DP: It is interesting to create visual situations. This islike magic sometimes. We can really create this kind of environ-ment, and it is not like everybody can do that. So this is a big advantagewe have. It is also an advantage that we can combineknowledge from various systems and incorporate it.


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3. Immaterial works of art

Outlines of the folowing topicsIva Kova & Nataa Tepavevi

IK: We dont have a concrete theme, everything we have marked asdisputable was probably answered in our last conversation. I thinkit is interesting how Dans artwork was inuenced bythe work he did for salary. Maybe we should talk about that?That is similar to the question we have already discussed; what kindof experiences can art come from? Today art doesnt function apartfrom life. You dont need time to contemplate. If you are more engagedwith world, you will have more material to work with.

NT: Maybe it would be interesting to talk about the immateriality of artas a formal characteristic of this very work we are doing right now.IK: It is funny because we need some material proof that we did some-thing for this occasion.NT: OK we will try to talk about art production that doesnt necessarilyproduce art objects. It is interesting when works interfere with reallife and this makes it nearly impossible to document them with vi-sual media. We are working with many different themes

what will, in the end, become our material. Some of theconversations are not documented, but we have the story: We de-cided to work together. At the beginning we were talking about ourpositions as East European artists in exchange with the West. Now

we are discussing relations / aspects / positions of this work. Maybe,now, we can erase the borders between the East and the West. Wehave stopped searching for our positions. For sure, the others willposition us anyway. It is good that we have started with the topics of


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identity and positions because we wanted to discuss the character ofthe East European artist, and, through conversation, nd momentsin which we can overcome common position, stereotypes, traumaticmoments and constructionsIK: Do you know what I nd interesting; performances in which bodiesof performers are the only objects on display. Do we consider themimmaterial art works? Look at work; she has not be-

come an object. Her act is the work of art but in and performances act is not the main part of the work, rather the fact thatthey are on the scene. That means they are objectied. showed relations between a curator and the artist, implying sexualconnotations. Artist depends on the curator and she says that thereare many more male curators and many female artists.NT: In another work she is seducing a famous curator over dinner andasking him afterwards if he liked her work and he answered: I havenever enjoyed contemporary art more. I think that mo-ment erased the border between life and art.IK: Do you know ? He has performed a piece in New York, inwhich he kneels in front of important cultural institutions, banks and

so on. He does that until documentary picture is taken. Performancedoesnt have to refer to the duration of time, it can be an image ofwhat was done. He is not performing his body, or a male subject; heis performing his relation to the institutions in front of which he iskneeling.NT: There is this artist who is approaching curators of different institu-tions with some kind of agreement. He is asking the curators to allowhim to smack them. Five seconds after the smack he takes pictures ofthem. If the curator allows him, i.e. signs the agreement, he has thework. The photos he took ve seconds after each smack are later theexhibited objects. They represent the moment betweenthe convention and the emotional reaction. Five sec-

onds after the smack people cant really control theiremotions. You can see they are very angry although they have al-lowed this to happen to them and its interesting because they try tohide these negative emotions.

IK: Maybe we can talk as well about the opposite of immaterial. Largeart objects are still very much produced. The term of art pollution wascoined. It is hard to store art works because the art production hasgrown in a way that modern and contemporary art museums are oc-cupying larger spaces than the museums storing all the history of artbefore the Modernism. We can speak about who madesculptures that weight hundreds of tones. The sculpture that blocks

the possibility to cross the square is a conceptual art piece. It is dealingwith the regulation of space. But he didnt use tape; he made a steelsculpture. Also, two years ago, on the ,when I saw thispiece about art pollution-two pavilions ahead there

was a huge plastic chamber, I couldnt say what it wasfor but it was as big as this room.


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Second ConversationDan and Lia Perjovschi

IK: We want to talk about the immateriality of art, or the art that

functions with very scarce materials. We were as well talking about

body art where the body is used as the material and where no other

material is necessary.

DP: In a certain way if you extend to the maximum; allthe history of theatre is immaterial because you only havethe reection or the documentation of it, but the real event happenedand its gone. Its just contemporary; it doesnt have history. And with

body art it is the same, you use your body, it can be a lot of requisitesor stage design, but its an action that goes and what stays is just thedocumentation of it, which is a bit different. You form an idea becauseyou see three images and you connect it into a movie, but if you seethe performance it would perhaps be something else.LP: Conceptual art is talking a lot about dematerialization of art andso on, and we have a lot of examples, of course.DP: There was one we saw some years ago in Vienna. There was a workthat was actually a script of the work, and the script of the work wasthis: it was addressed to millionaires, inviting them to do contempo-rary conceptual art, saying they should send two million euros ordollars from their account to another account and that this action is

conceptual, the other account was the artists account of course. Itwas an instruction to somebody to execute something. You can readthe script and you can imagine the work But I will talk from my per-spective. I used very minimal means because I was poor.


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I didnt have any possibility to work with expensive materials and I wasabsolutely horried by moving art works from one place to another,the packaging, the storing, and border, whatever. It was too much forme, so I had to invent something that would be very easy to do and withminimal material, and thats how it came, it didnt come at once butafter a while. And I am still preoccupied because I think that poor con-text in a material sense and rich context in a material sense, can also

meet within this phenomenon. If you go to Berlin or to Germany youwill see a lot of installations made of poor materials, cardboards Ithink its a general, not rebellion but subversive stuff,because it is a very materialistic world and they putsuch a great value on these expensive materials.And Ithink that, if you deal with these materials, you are still progressive ina world in which they try to sell everything. This artist called was originally born in Romania but grew up and did his studiesin Munich. He would do the following works; he would befriend oneof the guards working in a museum, and than he invited him to be hiswork in another museum, and that was the work named Klaus, bythe name of the guard. And Klaus gave small lectures about art be-

cause he was guarding it. And than, at the certain moment, becausehe wanted to do the same piece in New York, this artist would take a look at the telephone book and found a new Klaus, butthis time it was a woman, so he invited her to do lectures about art.So he is an artist who focuses on this kind of immateriality, but in hissense it is sometimes absolutely complete. Romanian pavilion at the was left empty, nothing, they have just cleaned it, soit just bared the possibility and the leftovers of the other exhibitions,scratches on the wall, that kind of traces of what was there, and youcould imagine what could be there, but there was nothing, absolutelynothing. Thats another solution.IK: In the beginning you said that theatre is a kind of immaterial

medium as well as body art is. I think that theatre art becomes im-material after it happens, but during the performance of the work it

is very material. We were discussing the work of and when they were standing in a corridor where they basically

blocked the entrance. It can be interpreted as immaterialbecause they are not using anything but their bodies,but they are exhibiting themselves in a very materialsense. They are very present. Could you dene as immaterial theworks that enter art history as such, or

DP: So one immateriality is referring to the actual object, and whenthe object is missing its just the story of the object But you are

right, the theatre art is produced with a lot of money or with a lot ofstage, engineers or whatever so charged with stuff. But you have tobe contemporary to that production to understand it completely. It isabsolutely different with sculpture or painting. You have it in front ofyour eyes, the original.LP: I need something clear to talk about. said that art was aconcept. I like that very much because it is already notmaterial. And suddenly you feel as being free to do whatever. Ifyour idea asks for a certain way of realization than do it, and analyzeit at the end.IK: Why does it become art when we realize it in some kind of ma-

terial?

LP: Because in a way we cannot talk about it without material. Youneed some elements to show, to analyze, and to talk about.DP: But it also depends on the context. Some contexts will beable to dene it as a project of art and some will not.Some contexts need to see something, to touch it, to own it in orderto recognize it, and some do not.LP: It makes sense to talk about the dematerialization of art because,in a way, everything keeps going. Finally, we all got it that weare ephemeral, so maybe it has to do something withlife in postmodernism maybe.DP: I am under constant pressure to produce works on paper becauseof the market system, and not only the market. People like what you

do they want to have it, so how can they have it without the materialform? As we have discussed earlier in the day, in a certain sensethe market inltrates everything, they can buy youridea.


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LP: In the 70s they were very crafty, the galleries and so on. You know,they bought the gold thrown in Seine by or shit in a can.Another work I dont know who the author is, but anyway, an artistsold an object and the collector broke it If the artist was free to giveme whatever, I am free to do what I want. So what kind of art is this,or an art object and so on? So, the idea after that was to glue thisobject all the time, and to break it all the time.

IK: Was that a concept of the artist or the curator?LP: You see, the collector bought something, maybe broke it by ac-cident and then DP: The discussion we have about it now is; if I buy your work and Itear it apart, can I be punished?LP: To whom it belongs DP: legally. It is not the fact that if you own a

you can do whatever you want to , because itis not 100% yours. And it is not only about the patrimony, thewell recognized artists, but also for everybody else. You cannot do it.So in a way it is interesting. They tried to legalize the way we behavewith objects of art.

LP: is having this newspaper or a publication in whichthey try to put all this unwritten rules of the art systemabout ethics, market, artist protection DP: The artists in the 70s tried to protect themselves, and tried toprotect their right to the secondary and tertiary selling of the object,because now you give it out and you have no saying later, so they triedto make something like an artist kind of contract LP: Yes, but she is talking about a different kind of DP: property, because shes an artist who deals with institutions andthe way capitalism functions. She founded a company for ,and the company in Germany still needs a fund and a board to becomefunctional. So, with a budget she had received she established this

company and registered it. Then, the member of the comapnys boardwas the director of , the curator as well, and so on. Theyagreed to do it for free, but they had to meet every year to see that thecompany did not produce prot. That was the idea. The company could

not produce prot. I dont know, but at there was a pile ofmoney and the regulations. Each year, or every time she is re-showingthe work there is the new bureaucracy added, the annual report andwhatever So it is your category although it is about money LP: The work is actually being reproduced now, while we are talkingabout it.DP: They have to do it every year as an annual report, so in a way the

work completes itself with new bureaucracy every year.LP: And you know bought the work, so actually whatdid they buy?DP: I really dont know!LP: But it is interesting.DP: I can give you an example with this very fashionable ,right. does this temporary sculpture. You take this andyou stick it on the wall, right, but he is selling this, so what are youbuying. You are buying instruction how to keep a ball

with your head on the wall.IK: Like ?DP: Set of instructions. Or like with the black and white,

that was sold. One is painting black, one is IK: Aha at the .DP: Yeah, so, that was sold to some kind of a private collector.IK: Yes, how does that function?DP: I think it is a certicate that they own the rightsto the piece.LP: How? The artist maybe gives them permission to paint the wallsthree times. This is the work.DP: Or they have the right to, if somebody wants to show this work LP: Yes, tree times, in these conditions. Respecting that this has tostart with white and than with black DP: One of the posters of , the one with the

bed, the intimate space in the public space, thats owned by , soevery time thats shown they have to respect exactly the LP: size DP: But you have to pay to have it. Every time


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you show you have to pay. So thats another situation. I dontknow how it is with the performance. Can you own it or not. Maybeyou can own the documentation.LP: I actually you invent the conditions as the work.DP: But we can maybe talk about our practices. Maybe that is bet-ter, because we know them. I told you we were poor so this is whywe used these kinds of materials that were cheap, and at a certain

moment we ceased to produce objects in the sense of artistic objects.And Lia is doing this kind of charts and they can have the followingshape - they can be printed on transparent paper and stuck on thewall, or they may have a Xerox copy because she is sometimes afraidto send the original LP: Yeah DP: so she sends a copy of it.LP: Yeah, but it is not really dematerialization.DP: But you have something that you can whats the valuethere? Is it the idea or the support of it?NT: It is an interesting moment of how we are consuming art nowadays

- very often we hear or see something on the Internet. The good art

is I dont know, we are in touch with the theoretical frame or withthe interpretation, I dont know if this is a kind of new category.

LP: Yeah you are right, we are analysing images. We are not in front ofthe work so it is like another creation. There are layers of this NT: Does this mean that we dont need something that is material?

LP: Not necessary DP: I dont know. I myself still need books; a book as an object, or thenewspaper as the object. Sometimes I like it, and I like this look and notthe fancy colour ones. Sometimes these books are so true, you know,but Im telling you I also understand the reason because somehowthe market and objects are another way to communicate. I think we

just have to be aware when this becomes the main thing the object,and its value becomes the subject. What then? It has to be the ideathat matters. And the representation of the idea, I think, has to besecondary. Because it doesnt matter if it i s a Xerox copy or the originaldrawing, it is what is inside the drawing that matters.

IK: But as you said, throwing the gold in the Seine, or the cannedshit, are actually reactions to the market, they are basically trying

to subvert the market

DP: But the market is strong enough to consume themand they become pieces of patrimony in the museum,so in a way you cant ght the market in this sense,

you can outsmart it for a while and than it will cope

you in IK: Or you wont become art?

DP: I dont know, but I think we are smart, so we can invent ways toget out, and the market is also smart enough to get us in. Its a kindof a tangent here and it will go like this. Sometimes, when I send thedrawings of mine by the Internet , Im asked to say the date and size ofit, and I say these drawings have no size because I dont have them ona xed paper. I just repeat the motif and I dont even remember whenI did it for the st time because I keep redrawing it. So I say that sizeis variable. And it is very hard to communicate this because peopledont believe you; yes but whats the size?IK: How do you choose which drawings to put? You say that you have

drawings that are sometimes repeated. How do you choose whenyou come to a certain wall and you have a very big space, how do

you approach that space?

DP: I start with the ones I already know and I know they are successfuland they talk to people. So I put several of them and than I can relaxand look whats happening around me. And I work at random, I drawwhat I rember at the moment.LP: And as you say, some images are looking good on the wall andsome not. I mean hes trying to nd the expressive one or DP: I remember in MOMA there was a big wall and I came with the rstdrawing and it was really bad. I did the rst drawing really bad.LP: I dont know what he is talking about!DP: Yeah but that was the idea, not to select. I cant edit, so I just putthem in. Its random until the certain moment and than it becomesthinking.NT: Have you ever thought of exhibiting just one drawing?


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DP: Yes but Im not able to select. Thatswhy Lia is doing this, she can select,

she can do video, she can edit, andI cant. I cant select, if you give melike ten of mine drawings and tell meto put up one I would say no. I just

draw them once we discussed this;

I might do this project, going up in aspace and draw on the wall exactly thedrawings I draw there, so it might be

three or four or ten but not one hundred, but I still haventconvinced myself to do this, yet. Well see.IK: Because every time when I was explaining to the people

whose workshop I was going to I would always mention this one

drawing.

DP: Which one?IK: The one that was in the Turkish bath in Belgrade on October

Salon, and it was written ART and T was a cross and there was a

man hanging and another man telling him that the curator, no the

public is gone.DP: The press is gone!IK: Yes, The press is gone! That one stayed in my mind.

DP: Yes, because it is the opening that matters. This is another stor yof the materiality of art. The fact that people are concentrated onopenings and dont care whats happening after.LP: Or the videos at the exhibition, sometimes they cannot work so DP: After a month, they dont work. doesnt work! Big namesdont work!LP: If you have a whole exhibition based on videos than you donthave anything.DP: The entire story is then, the press opening, the man in black andthen, whatever.LP: But I think if you have this conceptualism or whatever within thestructure, and than you try to focus a bit, everything, all the ideas canbe dematerialization and you can have only this kind of a concept.

DP: You are on a more risky area if you work without objects becauseit will be complicated to point you, to pin you down, if Im a curatorwhere do I see you and what. So how can I distribute you in a role Ihave imagined if I dont know what you are doing or how.IK: Or if you are changing a lot.

DP: But this is a problem because if they know very well what you do,they just distribute you in the same role, just look at the

American artists, they are kind of playing the same character overand over and over again.IK: I was reading on and there was a comment abouther work as not being media specic, you dont see her works as her

signatures, she has a diverse production. She was compared to lets

say who has this really DP: Which you recognizeIK: As a signature, the piece is as a signature

LP: In a way we talk about the receipt how to do an artwork. Of course,one of the things is, at random, that the work shouldlook good when photographed, otherwise you will notbe in the catalogue, like, I am often not in the catalogue because

my works dont look good as pictures.DP: You cannot photograph them.LP: I have too many of them so I have to make my own catalogues.You know, there are some rules but if you dont want to do it likethat, you cannot do it for various reasons, then you will create

works out of these misunderstandings, the space inbetween, the things made up side down and you putthem right.DP: You see, in the recent years there were artists trying to patrimonyor to copyright a certain material Like for instance. So youassociate this with that, this with that.LP: Actually, I would still encourage people to choose their materi-als.DP: Its your choice, if you dont have a brand signature it will be a littlemore complicated, but maybe this will give you some space morefreedom in another sense.


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LP: But you were talking about . In a way one shot it.It seems to be one single work.DP: But I think that sometimes, in some artists cases, a detail of acertain thing can stand in itself. It can be much morecomplex than at rst impression. But you see, I rememberthis and that was a very good lesson in my life, this . Wesaw the rst in

LP: 92DP: very amboyant, very baroque, and than on top of this, youlike this and you dont like that, and you create a stand onabout everything in half a second. And than absolutely byaccident we bumped into archive and at that moment theyhad catalogues of each artist on the exhibition. So, there were a lotsof artists we didnt know, so there was like a pile of catalogues, andwe realized that, beside any of the art you didnt like ina half of second, there is entire body of art, much morecomplex than IK: Thats why it is god to see one persons shows, I really like those

because after a show I can have a much better idea of that art.

DP: Lia likes group catalogues.LP: I prefer group catalogues, group exhibitions IK: You like to be put in a context?

LP: I dont have time DP: She would like to see more.LP: diversity DP: I also like solo shows more than group shows, I feel freer to dowhatever. On the group shows I sometimes even feel uncomfort-able because I might be bothering somebody else and I dont wantto, so LP: In 95 the catalogue of the included a textwich I liked very much; it said that artists are not doing

what they want to any more, but they try to answerthe provocations of the curators, the exhibitions andso on DP: I do this

LP: And I wanted to say that, if the things are done because they haveto be done only in this way, they will tell a lot about the time we areliving in. It is interesting in a way because through works, in a verystill way, we can read the time, the problems, the feelings of people,the fragility or the determinism, even something very invisible.I mean, reread conceptual art, because they I think it was time, inwhich they were really more motivated, after the war, after the Hiro-

shima Their creativity was like brainstorming Dont think so much!Do! And thats why they ended up having so interesting ideas. Theywere playful. Now its more market oriented, more protecting youridea, more DP: territorial.LP: So I used to say that, more or less, in the 70s artists did everything.That is why we cannot escape them.IK: led a workshop I have attented. She was tellingus about the situation in the late 60s and early 70s, and then we

attended s presentation dealing with the samesubject. It is funny for me how people from the West are extremely

disappointed because the revolution failed. I think suggestions like

producing an alternative university are not adequate in our context.We have different problems.

DP: We dont have very clear ofcial institutions. Ithink thats the problem when thinking of inventingalternative ones. We are living in a place where theres no artmarket, so its a bit complicated to locate yourself here, but wehave the power to invent things which didnt existuntil we come. Because, what we are thaught in gen-eral is how to obey the system as it is and not chal-lenge it, just try to enter it. Maybe if you dont like this youcan invent you own kind of territory. So I agree with this, the rest, Ithink, is problematic.IK: Im not trying to diminish the quality of the idea,but I cannot understand the disappointment, the dis-appointment with the 68. How strong it is and how peoplereally are sad.


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DP: Yeah but they dont realize that we are looking at them. We arelooking at them now! So they succeeded somehow, right?IK: Yeah.

DP: Because the changing of the world apparently failed, but did it?Maybe without them it would be really catastrophic. But I disagree abit with Lia who said that everything was done there. And I think thatnow is also a time to do something, again. Maybe the time will come

when everybody will be pissed with what is going on in our time, sothere will be another, not necessary revolution, but somehow invent-ing new territory.LP: A lot of things were done also before the 70s, so nothing is newin a way and everything can be new.DP: There is a kind of rule, you as an artist are very interesting untilyou are established, and than you become very protective with yourown art trying to do it good So a lot of stuff that was done whenthese people were young or when they didnt care very much aboutit, the work was very powerful and then after that So this is theproblem, how to discuss with this system, how to let

yourself in and pull yourself out.

LP: Anyway, they change a lot: the galleries, the museums. Now theystart again, the museums, the galleries. They were provoking thatswhy now we are talking about , , , DP: Thats what Im saying, now we also have to do something becausethis new museum looks established, and its not new anymore. Youneed another kind of museum.LP: OK, from my point of view this is something else. SometimesI have a feeling that people use, I dont know why, ina wrong way, interesting ideas or titles. They use wordsbut theyIK: The words are very catchy

LP: Yes, they are only catchy. They were in the air, they took it, butsomebody else should have taken them and done better. But anyway,its not happening only in art. Or, its an interesting idea, but then itsnot so interesting, or its an interesting title on what

DP: Sometimes it is absolutely natural. You areforced, or you are more interested in per-formance or body art because it is veryaccessible to you. And you can, maybe,learn very quickly to work with thiskind of elements and materials. Andthats good. I dont think that if you

are in an absolutely awesome situ-ation you can think about very cheapthings. You dont even think about thembecause you are so used to do some-thing else. And sometimes this isthe risk in our culture. Everything that seems tobe against us is at the same time making us very aware, like keepingyou alive, not letting you just to go to sleep. So the ability to knowhow to use these things that are apparently against you, and turnthem into positive or more creative and I am not advocating herepoorness or something. Lia likes to use the expression: To do the bestyou can with what you have. Its correct, in a way its true. It doesnt

have to mean that you shouldnt dream of something big, but still. Ifyou only have access to Xerox - work with that, if youdont have an access to Xerox - work with your hands. Maybe invent practices which are close to you and you can expressthat then. And sometimes, Maybe we should think from this angle. Andthan I think that,when you dont have the pressure fromthe market, you dont have to defend this big career;

you are free to try and even fail. If it doesnt work, so what?And thats the freedom to miss. These people here are not free tomiss anymore they are labeled to something. Even when you lookat them, you dont like when all these famous artists are trying todo something else, you dont like it because you can recognize themonly through that.LP: , the rst exhibition he had in New York in DP: See, not in Cluj


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DP: Thats interesting, but if he did the same kind of practice, not in in New York, maybe the LP: OK we know the debate; everything that you putin an art context becomes art. But I will continue to say thateverything I put, doesnt matter where, and if I consider it being artand if I demonstrate DP: If did this in South America you would never hear about

this work. Now, you saw it in , right?LP: Its a practice also to talk about. Of course the thing doesntexist if we dont talk about it. Now we have a kind ofdenition of how we can have a work. Yeah, we have totalk about it.IK: But you do respect your works from the past that were not done,

probably, in some extremely good environments.

DP: Yes some of that work was pretty good.IK: Thats what I think, because if you havent come to this position you

would still have good works. Maybe they would not be discussed.

LP: Sure DP: But I mean, sometimes, some of the works got to be known, and

discussed, and reinvented, because works are dying, right?You do something and people forget, and than some-body comes and does a research into your work andthat revives the work and keeps it alive. In our case wegot lucky with an American researcher who dug in our body of workand put it in a catalogue and talked about it because otherwise, whocares about it.LP: Also, without having a photo camera at the beginning we still suc-ceeded to document. You will see, when looking back at your work,you will think; oh how naive was I at the beginning, so we were alsonaive but in time you get it, so lets try to nd this and that, and tryto restore it, maybe.NT:When you are doing something for the newspaperis it some kind of a different situation?DP: No, no, now its the same. For a while, at a certain moment, at thebeginning it was a little bit different, but now its absolutely same. Its

just that I am writing in Romanian language.IK: We were discussing that, basically the thing that we cannot live

off our own art can give us a lot of material.

LP: Right, but take care you dont split yourself. Try to make themwork.DP: For me it was what I was doing in the newspaper, but it was nota job, it was also like being part of a group so it was not exactly a job.

It was more like a platform; we would discuss politicsevery day. And what I did there inuenced my work,so I didnt have like a gallery, but the newspaper. Sothrough the newspaper I was becoming a voice, and they could not buyme because I was in the media so I could answer. So I had a protectionarea. And even now, thats the other part of the coin;a lot of people understand me just as an illustrator.And they cannot make the difference between thatand art.IK: In Romania it is probably more

DP: Yes but also - one curator stuck on me the word doodle and thatpissed me off because doodle is something you dont think about, you

do like this, and than they all keep saying doodles because peoplecan recognize it, but saying this they stated it like my drawings areof insignicant kind of unthinking, and it is a completely oppositeprocess, so Im ghting the word now. And it will happensometimes, the people, they are not very attentive, they are very inspeed, they will take what you do and they will label it with something.And sometimes this is good, and sometimes is not so good becauseyou have to ght the label. The others will take that label as well, theyare lazy sometimes. They just replicate. Maybe it is good to tryfor a while, to test languages, and see what kind ofexpression suits you.LP: You know, in a way we like to criticize, but you need to know a lotto be able to criticize. I saw that it is not to smash around,but its to deconstruct and construct. I mean deconstruc-tion is construction. And we have to be emphatic. I dont thinkit is time to criticize, I think it is a way of choosing. So you choose to


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talk about things that are interesting and this is a kind of criticizing.And if you like this, you can develop this kind of work. Really looking atyour context, but start, dont talk too much. That is the problemin the East, we talk too much.DP: For a while I thought that we just came out of communism andour art was not very interesting. The production of art at the time wasnot very interesting. And we got this freedom, we started to perform,

it was an interesting moment, and than the scene was conquered, orthe big part was put in a kind of neo orthodox art, kind of religiousart. And they were, in the middle, pushed us out a bit. And, as well,there was the that was introducing very mechani-cal video, not criticism, but mediums, so we were in be-tween crosses and video screens. So it was very complicatedto navigate for a while. It was like a long ght for nothing; installationversus painting, whatever.LP: In a way, to talk about things I dont like is wasting time for me.Really, they dont exist.DP: No, but it was a process. It is somehow interesting to see in yourown context the process of things changing, where will they stabilize,

because they will not stay equal, it will become something else, andsomething else and something else LP: I have analyzed why I had problems with the institutions I wasreading books on management and I have realized something. Therethey have mentioned that some institutions are workinghorizontally and others vertically. So very simple, I wasworking more on a vertical dimension because I was interestedmore in making an intervention into that culture, toconstruct a system of values, a system to analyze things And theothers are horizontal, they want to survive, they want to connect withothers, they want to be sure, they want to have money DP: In our own local ghts with this kind of academism in art we usedthese kinds of artists examples from the West, like artist strategiesand institutions that we later came to know. And when you see themfrom inside they are no longer such a good example, or they havechanged, or we have changed, or somebody changed. So in a way we

are a bit off, Im feeling off balance sometimes. Several times we haveused as an example. We use it as a serious platform forcontemporary art LP: But is a big focus of money and energy.DP: There is enough time to prepare it well, but even in this kind ofplatform you see interests and pressures. We have come to know abit better how it functions, so it is no longer an immaculate example,

or maybe it just didnt match our expectations. We were alwaysfrustrated because in our context we havent had thatkind of institution and we always blamed our condi-tions for that. And now we think that it is not simple,it is not only to replicate the in your owncontext.DP: Sometimes I dont understand why the institutions which havethe money to resist the market and create spaces for good thinking,and they have the means, they have the budget, they have the under-standing to do his, why do they fail? How come? They have much morefreedom than in the world of market maybe it is not so easy, maybethey have to fundraise, maybe they have to play nice with the power-

ful people But, when these institutions exist we have the demand togive our best, you know, because you have the conditions tocreate something good, so if you fail thats a problembecause you fail me too.DP: If I dont want to do a radical show now because I may or may notapply for the job tomorrow and the guy who maybe feels offended ison the board than you are dead.DP: What I would like to say is that some institutions and practicesand models, and even artists, they dont stay the same, they change.Maybe in ten years the same artist wont be interest-ing,maybe the institution that provoked a very inter-esting debate will become boring. So, in a way, it is verycomplicated to cope with the fact that things are moving and you haveto constantly inform yourself about whats going on, and this makesthings very complicated. It would be so easy to know that these arebest and that they will stay best forever. We feel a bit, not betrayed,


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but kind of disappointed by the fact that we believed all these people,we really believed their theories, their institutions, their statementsand than you go and see. We really believed that the 70sare not like a theory somewhere on a shelf. I really be-lieved, you tell me to believe and I do.


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4. InterviewIva Kova & Nataa Tepavevi with Glsun Karamustafa

IK: We wanted to talk to you about the different approaches we feel

you have while exhibiting in your own context and while not. One

of the reasons we ask you this is because of your work, The Mythic

Transport, which was done for the bienniale in Istanbul, and seems

like dealing with a global issue. And when you were exhibiting in

Germany or in Austria you were exhibiting works that were asking

questions dealing with the aspects of your background, as an artist

who comes from the East. So we wanted to ask how do you choosethe subject matter when working for different audiences, and do

you feel it as imposed, in a sense, to talk about your context when

exhibiting outside of it?

GK: No, rstly I should tell you that I never feel imposed to do anything.If you have something in mind, if you wish to do i t for years, you wantto talk loud about something for years and than an opportunity comesalong and you immediately think of that word, or that sentence, or thatwork, wouldnt you do it? These exhibitions were really the occasionsfor me to speak out loud, so that is why my works were really relatedto this occasions, but actually it was something which I have kept in-side of me for years so that I can speak it out loud. This is how I linkmyself to such exhibitions or anything like that. For example, still inAustria, they come to me and ask me how come Im notwearing a scarf, and I say that in my country it is the other wayaround. The state is putting pressure on the people who are wearing


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the scarf. So these are the things I have kept inside myself for a very,very long time. So I think, sometimes these exhibitions re-ally give you, or the topics gives you, the opportunityto speak about something that you have kept inside

yourself for a very long time. IK: We were thinking as well about the period when you were in Is-

tanbul and couldnt leave Turkey. How did you interact with the world,

were you interacting only with your own context or did you try to GK: That was very interesting for me; I never stopped to work throughall this time that I was kept in Istanbul without having the passport.That time was, for me and for my other artist friends, the period ofcomplaining. Oh we cannot do anything, we are not open to the worldand how can we express things and ourselves like that. Everything isgoing down, this kind of kitsch is rising, and also the people from thecountryside are invading, everything is turning dirty, unbelievablyunhappy and so on. This was rising from this artistic view of Turkeyat that time. The only thing I did at that period that wasdifferent from their attitude was not being actually intouch with the world. What I thought at that time was all about

this hybridism when the world was coming together in a way, you know,moving from one place to the other. All these ideas, all these beliefs,everything was changing. At that moment I have focused on this situ-ation that was remarkably interesting thing for me. And when thedoors have opened I found myself perfectly combined. I perfectly combined the ideas and the outcome withthose who are living in different parts of the world

who were dealing with the same ideas. So this really mademe work in a larger area afterwards.IK: But you had enough work you had produced before?

GK: Yes, the works that I have shown you were mostly produced atthat period.IK: These were the collages and the paintings?

GK: Yes, everything, the works I have produced until the 90s. I haveproduced a lot but at the time I wasnt showing much.Later, these

works were shown all over the world, together with

the works of those artists from the periphery, thoseartists who were in my position in their own countries,so this was very interesting.IK: That was one of the things we were talking to Lia and Dan. It was

interesting because we feel that all of the artists, who have started

their careers at the point when they were excluded from the market

or from the West, had enough time to develop their own strategies.

They became included later but they had enough time to develop.And now we are becoming artists when the receipts how to be in-

cluded are obvious.

GK: Its a different situation.IK: We dont want to do work that is about the East on one hand

NT: because this is a strategy that is so transparent.

GK: These are the problems of these times. And this is why probablynow we have the same problem in Turkey. There are lots of young art-ists under 35 who have developed another kind of production, verymuch dealing with our sources. Now everything is becominga kind of strategy. It is the same with the whole world. We shouldalso consider the market in this because it is very interesting. Artists

who have started at the approximately same time as I have, have abroad background and a vast body of works they have done until then,and when the boarders opened it was very interesting to see all theseworks. The generation that followed us, now in their thirties, maybelate thirties,were really strong and had interesting ideasbecause they were still suffering from that position.But there is a problem with the youngsters, I think, because the marketis really going over them. It is trying to take the best out of them andtheir works and push them into the market. It is trying to raise themseveral steps, put them on a higher position so they canprot out of them.IK: In the beginning I have asked you if you feel obliged to ask these

questions, because in a way we are in the position where we feel that

it is really expected of us to ask them, and we do, but than at the sametime-by doing that, we feel like weve met the expectations. In the end

we are doing something we dont want to, obeying the stronger force


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that tells us what to do. I think this is a very ambivalent position. If

you criticize, you are giving to the market the material to work with

you in a sense, which is not a good position, I think.

NT: We are coming from transition countries and there are expecta-tions of what we should be like and how our art should look like.GK: Yes, I agree with you, but as you say, these are transitory positions.Before the 90s we were in the same position, together with all the

Balkans. But you know, I think that the transition hasnt nished yetand in the end we may nd ourselves in the same position from whichwe have started. I was thinking about this lately, but this may not hap-pen, because we have taken a long way forward and very many thingshave changed, we will see. And for a solution, I dont have a solutionfor myself; this is what I can say. I can never say that I have my posi-tion at the age of 60. No, Im not stable still, but of course I have comea long way, thats important. And it is important that afterputting so much energy into something I am receivinga feedback. But I still dont feel stable.IK: How do you feelabout your position in the art world.

GK: I can survive off my art, that is something, my works are in themuseums, and that is something as well. Im still not part of the mar-ket as they call it, but I think everything is developing in its own way.This is why I cannot complain regarding the position I am in, but if Ihad more expectations I wouldnt be very happy about it.IK: One of the things that are as well usually described as negative

regarding artists practices is that artists have to do different things

to survive. We wanted to ask you if maybe this could be considered

positive to a certain extent.

GK: On my own behalf I can speak about this. I have done many verydifferent things in my life trying to survive. The only thing I dont wantto do, though I have done it for six years, is teaching. I fell thatteaching in a school is fatal for an artist and cannotgo together with being the artist, so I gave it up in the begin-ning of the 80s. Being an artist, but surviving with other jobs. I havedone unbelievable jobs in my life. I have illustrated books; I have madedubbing and I was an art director for lm and so on. I really tell it to

young artists that they should not be afraid ofdoing other jobs. But for example if a job isreally killing you, or if it is really taking you toanother course, you should immediately leaveit and nd another position and continue withyour art.NT: We have concluded that it can

also give you ideas because you aremore connected to the world and to

the so-called real problems.

IK: It can be read as positive be-

cause most art is dealing with ev-

erything that is not art.

GK: Yes, of course. Art was not like this. You know, when Igraduated from the academy for example, I was doingillustration and I was educated as a painter. For thepainter the most fatal thing in life is to do illustrationbecause that way you lose credibility as a painter. Theysay your work is illustrative but I had to challenge that assumptionand do the illustration to survive.IK: And what about your works dealing with French painting from

the time of Romanticism. Do you sometimes get ideas out of bitter-

ness? Do you sometimes transform bitterness into a piece of art that

maybe started as a confusion of emotions?

GK: You mean the works dealing with orientalism? This was a love andhate position for me. Since the academy years we have been taughtnot to like all these gurative paintings, but I liked them. When I lookat them, though I like them very much and I wanted to communicatemyself with them, I actually found out that there were so many con-notations in them about the East. These orientalist projectsourished actually from this love and hate situation,as well as my love for this orientalist painting was a

reaction to this context.IK: I just have one more question. I would like to ask you on your

position on feminist art.


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GK: I really dont like this separation. I have always refused it as aseparation of women from men. They tell me for instance: How comein your class there is four men and the rest are women? I do not feelit so. Work is work and everybody is trying to get something out ofit, which doesnt belong to women or to men. I am often asked to sayhow I feel as a woman artist. I dont feel anything as a woman artist.I have been educated in the same conditions as men, and I had no

feeling of inferiority as a Turkish woman.The Turkish academyis hundred and fty years old and for hundred andfty years women were educated at that academy

with naked models and everything.IK: I was not implying that there is something different in the Turkish

context from the rest of the Balkans. I nd it interesting to compare

what happened with the so-called feminist art and what is happening

with the art from the East. I would like to use as an

example. She is referring to and gaining value from the performances

from the 60s and 70s but without being radical. This heritage can

be used strategically. The same as the Eastern origin can.

GK: Yes but this separation between feminist art and the rest of art,

I dont like that.

IK: It is similar when we talk about the Eastern art and the Western

art or the normal art.

GK: Yes, Im not interested in that. But I have worked with feministsgroups and I have put my energy into these issues, but we dont haveto separate everything and create feminist art, thats something Iam against.NT: When you exhibit the same work in different contexts or countries

you probably get labelled, for example when you exhibit in the West

you get labelled as the artist from the East.

GK: Off course they put you in categories but I dontcare, Im open to all references and interpretations.


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Impressum

Iva Kova & Nataa TepaveviDistribution of knowledge

design and layoutElvis Krstulovi

illustrationIva Kova & Elvis Krstulovi

edition200 copies

Thanks to:Gulsun Karamustafa,Dan Perjovschi,Lia Perjovschi,Zana akin

The project has been commissioned by 29th Youth Salon - Salon of theRevolution; HDLU, Zagreb, Croatia, 04.- 26.10.2008

distribution of knowledge

Documents