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Sooner or Later: Yogacara

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Re: Sooner or Later: Yogacara

by ground » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:58 am

Yeshe D. wrote:

TMingyur wrote:For me? Honestly, it is irrelevant.

If the Mahāyāna dharma is irrelevant to you, why are you here?

I understand "Mahayana dharma" as bodhisattvayana. There is no necessary link to speculative views

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which may be seen differently by sectarians. I hope this answers your question.

Kind regards

ground Posts: 1782Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

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by Jnana » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:02 am

TMingyur wrote:

Yeshe D. wrote:

TMingyur wrote:For me? Honestly, it is irrelevant.

If the Mahāyāna dharma is irrelevant to you, why are you here?

I understand "Mahayana dharma" as bodhisattvayana. There is no necessary link tospeculative views which may be seen differently by sectarians.

And what, specifically, do you deem to be speculative about cittamātra?

All the best,

Geoff

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by ground » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:07 am

Yeshe D. wrote:And what, specifically, do you deem to be speculative about cittamātra?

The OP stated "consciousness only" in context of "Yogacara". And this is what I am referring to.

So I do not differentiate between intention (of whom?) and selection of words. If the selection ofwords necessarily results in reduction I call it speculation.

Kind regards



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by Astus » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:37 am

TMingyur wrote:The OP stated "consciousness only" in context of "Yogacara". And thisis what I am referring to.

I don't follow you. Cittamatra and Yogacara are almost the same words. "If the BuddhaNature is seen, there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing."(Nirvana Sutra, T12n374p521b3; tr Yamamoto)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;True Buddha can’t be found.















Does marvelous nature and spiritNeed tempering or refinement?Mind is this mind carefree;This face, the face at birth."(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b2426)

AstusFormer staff member Posts: 4656Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pmLocation: Budapest

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by Jnana » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:45 am

TMingyur wrote:If the selection of words necessarily results in reduction I call itspeculation.

All words are merely conventional constructs. Whether one translates vijñaptimātra as "consciousnessonly" or as "mere cognizance" or as "mere cognitive representation," the meaning should be clarifiedand understood with reference to the Dharma being presented. Thus there will be no recourse tomistaking teachings for "speculation" or "mental proliferation," both of which are antithetical toDharma.

All the best,

Geoff


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by conebeckham » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:08 pm

From the Dhammapada:

Manopubbaṅgamā dhammā manoseṭṭhā manomayāManasā ce paduṭṭhena bhāsati vā karoti vāTato naṃ dukkhamanveti cakkaṃ'va vahato padaṃ

All that we are is a result of our thought.It is founded on our thoughts, made up of thoughts.etc....May any merit generated by online discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

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by ground » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:14 pm

Yeshe D. wrote:

TMingyur wrote:If the selection of words necessarily results in reduction Icall it speculation.















All words are merely conventional constructs.

This can be applied as an allround argument for each and every unskillful view.

Kind regards



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by Jnana » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:29 pm

TMingyur wrote:This can be applied as an allround argument for each and everyunskillful view.

More misdirection. Again: Whether one translates vijñaptimātra as "consciousness only" or as "merecognizance" or as "mere cognitive representation," the meaning should be clarified and understoodwith reference to the Dharma being presented. Thus there will be no recourse to mistaking teachingsfor "speculation" or "mental proliferation" or "unskillful view," all of which are antithetical toDharma.

All the best,

Geoff


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by ground » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:20 pm

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by conebeckham » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:55 pm

As my professor for "Birth of the Novel" said, lo these many years ago (!), "Everyone has ametaphysics, they just don't know it. You can't step over a crack in the sidewalk without ametaphysics!"

I don't know if this is true...heh heh.....but it's appropriate. all views are limited....but useful. AsTMingyur points out, Madhaymika is conceptual proliferation, in a sense, just as Yogacara is.

Emptiness of the self, and emptiness of phenomena, are certainly useful constructs. The idea that allexperience is subjective contents of consciousness is also a very useful concept. All such "views" areuseful if they help decrease suffering and attachment, or increase positive qualities, merit and wisdom,in the short or long term.

The meditating mind is empty of an identity, ultimately....but there can be no denying that themeditating mind is also an awareness, a sentience.May any merit generated by online discussionBe dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.














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by Dexing » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:51 am

TMingyur wrote:Dexing, you are just holding the view of a speculative philosophy. Allthese philosophies are conceptually going beyond the Buddha's words and hold the viewthat this does validate what actually is just an instance of papanca (clinging aggregates).

Kind regards

Throughout this thread all you've done is basically dropped "speculative", "views", and left.

In response to the initial post you said:

"....it is inconsistent and it is speculation and speculation is not conducive."

What exactly about the Yogācāra doctrines do you find to be speculation, and what view of aspeculative philosophy am I holding? Perhaps engaging in a bit of a dialogue rather than just droppingoneliners may be more conducive here....

If you disagree with the Yogācāra doctrine of consciousness, then you must hold some belief of anobjective external realm. In such a case, you would be the one holding a speculative view because youhave absolutely no evidence to justify such a belief.

The doctrine of consciousnessonly is immediately verifiable and based completely on consistentproof, making it the rational choice here.

That being said taking into consideration that the consciousnessonly doctrine is in fact a temporary











system, designed to cut attachment to speculative views of an objectively existent external realm.Consciousness itself is ultimately also relinquished and Yogācāra, conforming to the Middle Way,divorced from existence and nonexistence, asserts no view much less a "speculative" one.

nopalabhyate...

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by swampflower » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:25 am

"So",I say to myself, "this is deep stuff! Just what is this Yogacara/mindonly all about and why iseverybody arguing...again?"With a bit of digging I found this, which I will post and maybe some bit of light will be shed.

Trisvabhavanirdesa of Vasubandhutranslated from Tibetanby Garfield, Jay L.

1. The imagined (parikalpita), the otherdependent (paratantra)And the consummate (parinispanna) These are the three naturesWhich should be deeply understood.

2. Arising through dependence on conditions andExisting through being imagined,It is therefore called otherdependentAnd is said to be merely imaginary.

3. The external nonexistence











Of what appears in the way it appears,Since it is never otherwise,Is known as the nature of the consummate...

4. If anything appears, it is imagined.The way it appears is as duality.What is the consequence of its nonexistence?The fact of nonduality!

5. What is the imagination of the nonexistent?Since what is imagined absolutely neverExists in the way it is imagined,It is mind that constructs that illusion.

6. Because it is a cause and an effect,The mind has two aspects.As the foundation consciousness it creates thought;Known as the emerged consciousness it has seven aspects.

7. The first, because it collects the seedsOf suffering is called `mind'.The second, because of the constant emergenceOf the various aspects of things is so called.

8. One should think of the illusory nonexistentAs threefold:Completely ripened, grasped as other,And as appearance.

9. The first, because it itself ripens,Is the root consciousness.The others are emergent consciousness,Having emerged from the conceptualization of seer and seen.

10. Existence and nonexistence, duality and unity;Freedom from affliction and afflicted;Through characteristics, and through distinctions,These natures are known to be profound.

11. Since it appears as existentThough it is nonexistent,The imagined natureIs said to have the characteristics of existence and nonexistence.

12. Since it exists as an illusory entityAnd is nonexistent in the way it appearsThe otherdependent natureIs said to have the characteristics of existence and nonexistence.

13. Since it is the nonexistence of dualityAnd exists as nondualityThe consummate natureIs said to have the characteristics of existence and nonexistence.



14. Moreover, since as imagined there are two aspects,But existence and nonexistence are unitary,The nature imagined by the ignorantIs said to be both dual and unitary.

15. Since as an object of thought it is dual,But as a mere appearance it is unitary,The otherdependent natureIs said to be both dual and unitary.

16. Since it is the essence of dual entitiesAnd is a unitary nonduality,The consummate natureIs said to be both dual and unitary.

17. The imagined and the otherdependentAre said to be characterized by misery (due to ignorant craving).The consummate is free ofThe characteristic of desire.

18. Since the former has the nature of a false dualityAnd the latter is the nonexistence of that nature,The imagined and the consummateAre said not to be different in characteristic.

19. Since the former has the nature of nonduality,And the latter has the nature of nonexistent duality,The consummate and the imaginedAre said not to be different in characteristic.

20. Since the former is deceptive in the way it appears,And the latter has the nature of its not being that way,The otherdependent and the consummateAre said not to be different in characteristic.

21. Since the former has the nature of a nonexistent duality,And the latter is its nonexistence in the way it appears,The otherdependent and the consummateAre said not to be different in characteristic.

22. But conventionally,The natures are explained in order andBased on that one enters themIn a particular order, it is said.

23. The imagined is entirely conventional.The otherdependent is attached to convention.The consummate, cutting convention,Is said to be of a different nature.

24. Having first entered into the nonexistence of dualityWhich is the dependent, one understandsThe nonexistent dualityWhich is the imagined.



25. Then one enters the consummate.Its nature is the nonexistence of duality.Therefore it is explainedTo be both existent and nonexistent.

26. These three naturesHave the characteristics of being noncognizable and nondual.One is completely nonexistent; the second is therefore nonexistent.The third has the nature of that nonexistence.

27. Like an elephant that appearsThrough the power of a magician's mantra Only the percept appears,The elephant is completely nonexistent.

28. The imagined nature is the elephant;The otherdependent nature is the visual percept;The nonexistence of the elephant thereinIs explained to be the consummate.

29. Through the root consciousnessThe nonexistent duality appears.But since the duality is completely nonexistent,There is only a percept.

30. The root consciousness is like the mantra.Reality can be compared to the wood.Imagination is like the perception of the elephant.Duality can be seen as the elephant.

31. When one understands how things are,Perfect knowledge, abandonment,And accomplishment These three characteristics are simultaneously achieved.

32. Knowledge is nonperception;Abandonment is nonappearance;Attainment is accomplished through nondual perception.That is direct manifestation.

33. Through the nonperception of the elephant,The vanishing of its percept occurs;And so does the perception of the piece of wood.This is how it is in the magic show.

34. In the same way through the nonperception of dualityThere is the vanishing of duality.When it vanishes completely,Nondual awareness arises.

35. Through perceiving correctly,Through seeing the nonreferentiality of mental states,Through following the three wisdoms,



One will effortlessly attain liberation.

36. Through the perception of mindonlyOne achieves the nonperception of objects;Through the nonperception of objectsThere is also the nonperception of mind.

37. Through the nonduality of perception,Arises the perception of the fundamental nature of reality.Through the perception of the fundamental nature of realityArises the perception of the radiant.

38. Through the perception of the radiant,And through achieving the three supreme Buddhabodies,And through possessing bodhi:Having achieved this, the sage will benefit him/herself and others.

Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā

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by ground » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:56 am

Dexing wrote:What exactly about the Yogācāra doctrines do you find to be speculation,and what view of a speculative philosophy am I holding? Perhaps engaging in a bit of adialogue rather than just dropping oneliners may be more conducive here....

If you disagree with the Yogācāra doctrine of consciousness, then you must hold somebelief of an objective external realm. In such a case, you would be the one holding aspeculative view because you have absolutely no evidence to justify such a belief.











The speculation is its reductionism.

And you may speculate about my view as you like. I don't care.

Kind regards



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Okay, interesting... more vague illdefined accusations without the slightest interest in actuallydiscussing the topic.

This just amounts to trolling, which is a violation of the Terms of Service.

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Dharma Wheel is an environment for the discussion of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Allare welcome but are required to abide by the TOS. Special forums have been created for specialareas of interest so please respect these boundaries. Dharma Wheel administrators andmoderators reserve the right to edit inappropriate content, and to remove or transfer any posts orthreads that are not relevant to the subforum in which they are posted. Any subject matter thatmay be offtopic or is intended only to cause disruption or harm to others may be removedwithout notice. This includes the badmouthing of other Buddhist discussion forums, trolling andproselytizing.

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Dexing wrote:If you disagree with the Yogācāra doctrine of consciousness, then you musthold some belief of an objective external realm.

This actually proves that you are trapped by an extreme view

Dexing wrote:This just amounts to trolling, which is a violation of the Terms of Service.

And this is a typical reaction of people attached to their views when being confronted with outrightrejection of their view by others.

Kind regards

















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If your view would be based on experience and not just a product of thought then you would beindependent of views of or rejections by others. But mere thoughts need to be protected.

It is typical that mere thought is always seeking confirmation.

Kind regards



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TMingyur wrote:

Dexing wrote:If you disagree with the Yogācāra doctrine of consciousness,then you must hold some belief of an objective external realm.


Kind regards

And to which "extreme" does this ascribe?

You've been asked repeatedly to stop dropping the oneliner illdefined and condescendingaccusations, and actually engage in the discussion. What you are doing here is trolling which is in















violation of the Terms of Service.

nopalabhyate...



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TMingyur wrote:

Dexing wrote:This just amounts to trolling, which is a violation of the Termsof Service.

And this is a typical reaction of people attached to their views when being confrontedwith outright rejection of their view by others.

Kind regards

No, my friend... At this point it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I, and others, have repeatedly attempted to engage in dialogue with you to discuss your points andours, while you show no interest, yet continue to post short negative accusations.

nopalabhyate...













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Dexing wrote:

TMingyur wrote:

Dexing wrote:If you disagree with the Yogācāra doctrine ofconsciousness, then you must hold some belief of an objectiveexternal realm.


Kind regards

And to which "extreme" does this ascribe?

If the alternative to holding your view is "belief of an objective external realm" then it is clear thatyour view rejects "external" and confirms "internal" exclusively.

Kind regards















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Therefore nothing excels the Buddha's words:

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose &aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, iscalled the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,'if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable toexplain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Kind regards



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