DaveAsprey: Ifyouhaven'theardaboutthebenefitsofCamelmilk,it'stotallyworthyourtimetolookintothisassomethingyoucouldaddtoyourBulletproofdiet.CamelmilkissomethingthatIlearnedaboutfromWalid,theownerofDesertFarmswho'sthelargestsellerofCamelMilkoutthere.

CamelMilkgotitsstartintheautismcommunitybecauseit'snon-reactive,thewayCamelmilkis.Now,it'sjustbecomeoneofthenewsuperfoodsthat'soutthere.Oneofthereasonsisthatit'sfullLactoferrin,whichisanaturalsubstancethat'spresentinmother'smilkthathasantibacterial,antiviral,antiparasitic,anticancerproperties.Itdoesn'thavelactoseorLactoglobulin.Thestuffthatmakeslactoseintolerantpeopleunabletoprocessmilkfromcows.DesertFarms'camelmilkisalsoorganic.It'stestedforheavymetalsandactually900differentcontaminants.Itis[Guido00:00:50]certified,GMOfree,hasnobovinegrowthhormoneoranythingweirdlikethat,andit'spasture-raised,soit'sallgrass-fed.

DesertFarmsisofferingareallygooddealofBulletprooflistenersbecausetheywereattheBulletproofconference,andwegottobefriends.They'regivingawayafreebottleofcamelmilkforyou.Allyouhavetodoispayforshippingandhandling.Justheadovertodesertfarms.com/bulletprooftogetyourfreebottleofcamelmilkrightnow.That'sdesertfarms.com/bulletproof.

Automated: BulletproofRadio,astationofhighperformance.

DaveAsprey: You'relisteningtoBulletproofRadiowithDaveAsprey.Today'scoolfactofthedayisaboutmastery.Peoplewhoreallyhaveachievedalevelbeyondotherpeople.IlookformasterswhenIinterviewpeopleonBulletproofRadio.Here'sacoolfactaboutamaster.Dr.YoshiroNakamatsuwhoistheinventorofthefloppydiskand3,300otherpatented[interventions00:01:56]isoneofthoseunusualgeniusmaster-levelpeople.He'salsoabiohacker.Hehackshisgeniusbyintentionallystayingunderwateruntilthemomentjustbeforehedrowns.Hebelievesthatitstimulateshisbrain.Heactuallyinventedatablet,sohecanactuallytakenotesunderwater.Itturnsouthe'sright.Thattreatmentstimulatesyourbraintomakemorecapillaries.WhenyougetintothatPseudohypoxicstate,whichissimilartowhathappenswhenyou'redoingtheWimHofBreathingMethodorartoflivingorsomethingelselikethat,youactuallycangointoathetastatewhichiswhereintuitionandcreativityhappen.

Whenyouputpressureonyourhead,you'reactuallymakingyourmitochondriaclosertogether,soyourelectronsdon'thavetomoveasfar.Theymoveanawfullotoftime,soatinydifferenceinhowfartheymoveequalsbetterfunctioningbrain.Thiscrazyguypaidattentiontohowwefeltandwhatworked.Well,3,300patternslater,youcouldsayhe'scrazy,oryoucouldsayhe'sagenius.Youcouldjustsayhemasteredit.Ifyou'rearegularlistener,

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you'veheardmesharemylistoftop10biohacks.Let'stalkaboutnumbernine:funhacksfortheBulletproofmind.

Itmaysoundweird,buthangingupsidedownisagreatwaytohackyourbrain.Regularlyinvertingtrainsyourbraincapillaries,makingthemstronger,morecapabletobringoxygentoyourbrain.It'sprettystraightforward.Moreoxygeninthebrainmeansbetterperformance.IgetmydailystretchandmydoseofoxygenwithmyTeeterinversiontable,whichissocentralforoptimumfocus,concentrationandmentalenergy.Thatfullbodystretchelongatesthespine,andtakesthepressureoffthediskssotheycanplumpbackup.Lesspressuremeanslesspain.Ifyouhavebackpain,evenifyou'vebeenluckyenoughtoavoiditsofar,youreallywanttoTeetertoinverteverydaytokeepyourbackandjointsfeelinggreat.Forevery35years,Teeterhassetthestandardforqualityinversionequipmentyoucantrust.

MyfriendsoveratTeeterhavedecidedtoshowsomelovetoBulletprooflisteners.Foralimitedtime,youcangettheTeeterinversiontablewithbonusaccessoriesandafreepairofgravityboots,soyoucaninvertathomeortakethebootswithyoutothegym.Togetthisdeal,whichisasavingsofover138bucks,gotogetteeter.com/bulletproof.You'llalsogetfreeshippinganda60-daymoneybackguaranteeandfreereturns,sothere'sabsolutelynoriskforyoutotryitout.Remember,youcanonlygettheTeeterwithbonusaccessoriesandafreepairofgravitybootsbygoingtogetteeter.com/bulletproof.G-E-T-T-E-E-T-E-R.com/bulletproof.Checkitout.

Today'sguestissomeonewhodoesn'tknowit,butsomeonewhoactuallyprobablysavedmycareer.Ifnot,reallyhelpedacceleratemycareerwaybackintheday.BeforeItellyouwhoitis,I'lltellyoualittlestory.Iwas26yearsold.ImadesixmilliondollarsatthecompanythatheldGoogle'sveryfirstserver.WhenitwasLarryandSergeyandoneserver,andtheyneededtoputitsomewhere,theycametoacompanywhereIhelpedtostarttheconsultinggroupinsidethecompanycalledExodusCommunications.Ifoundmyselfinshortorder,beinga27-year-old,attendingboardmeetingsforacompanyworth$36billiononthestockmarket.Iwasn'tallowedtospeakatboardmeetings,butIgottoseethem.Iattendedexecutivestaffwithpeopletwicemyageandabout100timesmyexperience,becausemyexperiencewasonlyafewyearsinCorporateAmerica.

IwasanengineerwithalittlebitofAspergersyndrome.Iusedtodescribemyjobastakingideasthatarecrayon-simple,andredoingtheminfingerpaintforexecutives.Ididnotunderstandthem.Ithoughttheywerecrazypeople.Truly,theirbehaviormadenosensetoarational,logicalbrain.Then,Ipickedupabookthatabsolutelychangedmyabilitytodothis,anditwascalledThe48LawsofPower.Thiswasabookthathadtakenquiteawhiletowritewithaculturalanthropology,storiesthroughoutallofhistory,lookingathowpeopleinpowergotinpowerandstayedinpoweranddistillingtheessence.ItwasoneofthebooksthatIwilljustneverforgetbecauseIreadthisbook,andaweeklater,I

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satintheexecutivestaffmeeting.I'mlike,"Oh,myGod.Thesepeoplearenotcrazypeople.Thesepeoplearepowerfulpeople.Therulestheyfollowarenotengineeringrules.They'repowerrules."

Bylearningthatswitchinmyownabilitytothinkaboutthis,IlearnedhowtofunctioninSiliconValley,howtoworkattheventurecapitalfirm,howtoraisemoneyandhowtodowhatIdoatBulletproof.IfIdidn'thavethoserulestomakemestopthinkinglikearobotandstartthinkinglikeachessplayer,Iwouldn'thavedoneit.TheauthorofthisbookisRobertGreenewhoissittinghereonYouTube,thosewatchingYouTubechanneloroniTunes.

Robert,thankyouforyourwork.Itfeelslike15yearsago,butyourbooktotallychangedmycareer,sothankyou.

RobertGreene: Well,that'sgreattohear,Dave.I'mexpectingacheckanydaynow.Imean,justkidding.That'sagreatstory.

DaveAsprey: Here'swhatyoubookdidn'tteachmehowtodo.

RobertGreene: Oh,uh-oh.

DaveAsprey: ImentionedImadesixmilliondollarswhenIwas26.IlostthesixmilliondollarswhenIwas28.I'dwriteyouacheck,butitmighthaveadecimalpointatthebeginningofthenumber.

RobertGreene: Oh,Isee.Okay.

DaveAsprey: Unfortunately,butthatwasn'tyourbook'sfault.Thatwasactuallymyownfault,andthat'shappenedinSiliconValley,allovertheplace.Sincethattime,you'veappliedthatsimilarincrediblerigortosomeotherbookslikeTheArtofSeduction,lookingatwhathappenswhenpeopleseduceotherpeople,whichisalsoveryinterestinghowyoucharacterizethedifferenttypesofseductionthathappen.The33StrategiesofWar,andthe50thLaw,whichIjustthinkishilarious.Youactuallywroteitwiththerapper,50Cent,whichissupercool.Whatamash-up.Iwouldn'thaveimagined.Then,mostrecently,Mastery,whichisalsoahellofaread.You'vejustgonethroughoverthepast20years.EversinceI'vebeenworking,andjustwrittenthesebooksthatdistillknowledgeinawaythatnooneelsehasbeenabletotouch,inmyexperience.Iwanttoaskyouquestionsfromeachbookinthisinterview.

RobertGreene: Sure.

DaveAsprey: Theintentisthatfor,probably,myguess,there'sabouthalfamillionpeoplethathearthisintervieweventually,soIwanttomakesurethatweaddvalues.Theygetactionablethingsfromeachofthequestions.Firstquestionisintheprefaceforthe48LawsofPower,youquotedMachiavelli.Yousaid,"Anyman

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whotriestobegoodallthetimeisboundtocometoruinamongthegreatnumberwhoarenotgood."Whydidyoupickaquotelikethat?

RobertGreene: Becauseit'ssocompletelytrue,andit'soneofthefirstquotesinthebook.ItdistillsmyexperienceandwhyIwrotethebook.Basically,IamnotanaturallymanipulativeMachiavelliantype.I'mmoreofthenaïve,innocenttype,particularlywhenIfirstwenttowork.I'vehadmanydifferentjobs,butwhenIstartedinjournalism.IworkedinHollywoodandmanyotherplaces.Iwasn'tthedevilishMachiavelliantype,andImadesomecommonmistakessuchasneveroutshinethemaster,lawnumberone.Itransgressedthatlawandpaidthepriceforit.Basically,theideaisthey'reoutthere.Peoplehavecomeupwiththepercentageforhowmanyveryhighly-Machiavellianpeoplethereare.It'salmostgenetic,5%,lessthanthat.Somethinglikethat.Mostpeoplearen'tlikethat.Mostpeopleneedthe48LawsofPower.Theyneedtounderstandit.

Forinstance,ifyou'reanartistormoreofacreativetype,you'regoingtothinkthat,"Well,mytalent,mycreativity,that'swhat'sgoingtoseethroughinmycareer."Boy,areyounaïvebecauseyou'regoingtosufferfromalloftheassholesoutthereinfilmorproducers.Thepeoplewhocontrolthemoneycontrolthepower.You'regoingtobeinalotoftrouble.Ifyoumightbeagoodperson,buttherearealotofbadpeopleoutthere.Thebadpeopletendtocome,getintopositionsofpower.It'sabooktoarmyouwithknowledge,likeyouhelpedyouinthosemeetings.IfeltthatthatquotefromMachiavellijustsummedupwhatIwastryingtocommunicate.

DaveAsprey: Idefinitelyhavecomeacrossthat5%.Oftentimes,theydoendupinpositionsofpower.

RobertGreene: Yes.

DaveAsprey: Youtalkin48LawsofPowerabouthowGalileoworkswiththeMedici's.Howdoes,"Neveroutshinethemaster"actuallycometoplay?Whatdoesthatreallymean?

RobertGreene: Itmeanssomethingverybasic.Peopleinpowerarehumanbeings.They'renotofadifferentgeneticcodethanyouorI.Theyhaveinsecurities.Theyfeelthatmaybeotherpeopledon'trespectthemasmuchastheyshould.They'relookingatthosearoundthemthroughaninsecurelens.You'renotawareofthat.Youthink,"Well,thatbossofmine.He/sheissopowerful.He'saboveallofthosepettythings."Youwilltryveryhardtoimpressthatboss.Youwillworkextrahardonaproject.Youwilltryandbefriendeverybodyelseintheoffice,andyou'renotawarethatintheprocessofdoingthat,youmightbemakingthatbossfeelinsecure,asif,"Thisyoungerperson,10,20yearsyoungerissmarter,ismorehip.Peoplelikehimorhermore."You'reathreat,andyou'renotawareofthatbecauseyouthink,"Well,work.It'sallaboutdoingthebestjob."Nobecausewheneveryouputthreepeopletogether,politicsintervene.

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Thatperson,thatbossislookingatyou,going,"Isthispersonapossiblethreat?Ishe/shemakingmelookbadincomparison?"Throughthatlens,theymightdecide,"Idon'tlikethisperson.He'smaybeorshe'smaybetoosmartforthejob.Idon'ttrustthem.I'mgoingtofirethem."Whentheyfireyou,ortheydemoteyou,you'llneverknowwhy.They'llneveradmitthatitcamefromoutshining.They'llneveradmitthatenvywasmaybetherootofit.They'llcomeupwithanexcuse.Somethingaboutyourpersonality,somethingaboutyou,notfittingin,notbeingateamplayer.Whateverthebullshitis.They'llcomeupwiththeexcuseforwhyyou'refired.Therefore,thisisaclassicexampleofwhatIsaid.Peoplewhoarecreativeandtalentedaren'tawareofthesekindsofthings.Youareinadvertentlyperhapsdiggingyourowngravebytryingtoohard.

WhatItalkaboutinMastery,Igothroughthis.Really,whenyoufirstenterajob,youwanttodowhatIcall,"TheBenjaminFranklinStrategy,"whichismuteyourcolors,notbesobrilliant,fitin,looklikesomeonewhoworkshardbutisn'tathreat,beamasterobserver.You'regoingtofindintheend,you'llhavealongerandbettercareer.TheGalileomethodisthereverseperspectiveonthat,andthatwhathedidinnamingtheJupiterplanetsthathediscoveredthroughthetelescopewashenamedhimaftertheMedici's.Hemadehismasterlookgreaterthanishumanlypossible,associatingtheMedici'swiththeseplanets.Insteadofmakingyourselflookgood,whichiswhatyouwouldnormallydowithoutthinkingaboutit,youwanttomaketheboss,themasterlookbrilliant.Youwanttomakethemfeelevengreater.Therearemanywaystodothat,andthat'slikepowerofahigherlevel.Notoutshiningispower101.Goingtothelevelwhereyouactuallyliterallylearnhowtomakethemasterfeelgreaterabouthimorherselfisanotherlevelthatwilleventuallyhelpraiseyouup.

DaveAsprey: Whensomeonegetsfiredforoutshiningthemaster,doyouthinkthattheseMachiavellianmastershaveadmittedtothemselvesinsidetheirheadthatthat'swhy?Doyouthinkit'sjustavaguefeelingofdiscomfort,sotheyjustswattedit?

RobertGreene: Well,twothingsonthatfront.Inthegameofpower,Itellpeopleitdoesn'tmatter.Whocareswhat'sgoingonintheirhead?Allyouknowisyouwerefired.

DaveAsprey: Afairpoint.

RobertGreene: That'sthegame.You'replayingchess.Theguymovestheking,andinaverybadway.What'sgoingoninhishead?Youdon'tcare.Youjustthink,"It'sabadmove.I'mgoingtocounterit."Imeanit'saninterestingquestion,andIdon'tknow.Ithink,insomecases,ofcourse,themasterisawarethatthere'senvyinvolved.Inmynewbook,Ihaveawholechapteronenvy.

DaveAsprey: Oh,good.

RobertGreene: It'saninsidiousemotion.It'sthemostinsidiousemotionofthemallbecausethemomentyoufeelit,youtrytodisguiseit.You'regoingtotellyourself,youfeela

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twingeofenvyforthatyoungerpersonwhomightbemoretalented.Then,you'regoingtoimmediatelyjustifythatemotionbysaying,"Well,actually,they'renotagoodperson.They'reaggressive.They'reassertive.They'reblah,blah,blah."You'regoingtocoveritup.Thebosseitherisalittlebitawareormaybetothepointwherethey'renotevenawareatallbecauseitoperatesveryquickly,thiscoveringup,becausewedon'twanttoadmittoourselves,particularlyaboss,thatwefeelinsecure.

DaveAsprey: thereasonIaskisthatIamaCEO.Bulletproofisarapidgrowingventure-backedcompany.OneofthethingsthatI'venoticedamongstmyfriendsinSiliconValleyisthattheypeoplewhocanhiretheabsoluterockstarsandallowthemtoshinearetheoneswhocreatecompaniesthatoutperform.TheactofbeingaCEOisanactofself-awareness.Idoalotofneuro-feedback.Irunaneuro-feedback-likeinstitutefortrainingmyownbrainpermanently,sothatIcanbecomeawareofwhat'sactuallygoingon.They'relike,"DoIbelievethestoryItoldmyself?"I'mputtingthisonasifyouarethemaster,howdoyouavoidbeinganasshole?Idon'trememberthatrule,butIwouldlovetoknowtheantidoteforthat.

RobertGreene: Well,ohGod,Icouldwriteawholebookaboutthat.

DaveAsprey: Yes,pleasedo.

RobertGreene: Iam,butalotofitdependsonbeingresult-orientedandnotbeinginwardlookingwhereyou'rethinkingaboutyouregoandhowotherpeopleperceiveyou.Whatyouwantintheendistomakemoremoneyandtohaveamoresuccessfulcompany.Iknow,forinstance,inoneofmybooks,ItalkaboutGeneralPattoninthe33StrategiesofWar,verybrilliantstrategist.Adifficultperson,butabrilliantstrategist.Hekeptcomingupagainstthisthingwherehewasbrilliant,probablythemostbrilliantgeneralwehadinWorldWarII.HekeptbeingblockedinhiscareerbypeoplelikeEisenhowerandBradleybecausehewasabitabrasive.Hekeptthinking,"Well,don'tresultsmatter?We'reinawarwherelivesareatstake.Shouldn'tbemystrategicgeniusbemoreimportantthanmypersonality?"Well,eveninwar,therearepeoplewhocaremoreabouttheirego,abouthowthey'reperceivedbyotherpeople.

IfIweretobuildamonsterCEO,andMachiavellitalksaboutthis,itwouldbesomeonewho'sextremelyadaptable,extremelyfluid,doesn'thavepreconceivednotions,isopeninthemoment,azenthingandiscompletelyrealisticandresults-oriented.Ifyou'reanangelinvestororyou'reaCEO,yourgameistomakeasmuchmoneyaspossible.Youwanttohiresomebodywho'shighlycreative.Itispossiblethatyou'regoingtomakeamistake.You'regoingtohireasnakeinthegrass.Someonewho'snotonlybrilliant,butisveryambitiousandisactuallylookingtotakeyourjobawayfromyou.Therearescenarioslikethat.Maybeitdoesn'tapplytoyou,butoften,peoplewillhirethatkindofsnakewho,intheend,isarealthreatanddoesruinthecompanyortakethingsawayfromthem.Youhavetobeveryclever,andyouhavetosee

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throughpeopleandbeabletojudgetheircharacter.Intheend,ifyouarefluid,ifyoucanlearnfromyourmistakes,andyoucanberealisticandcaremoreaboutresultsthanyourego,thatwouldbethemonsterCEO.

DaveAsprey: Theegoawarenessisthecore,andthat'stheverycoreoftheneurofeedbackwhereIspent10weeksofmylifenow,withelectrodesgluedtomyhead.

RobertGreene: Wow.

DaveAsprey: There'saliedetectortotellmewhenmyegoisin-chargeversusme.I'mstillnotdone,butit'sdesignedtocreatethatzenthing.Speakingofzen,you'reactuallyapracticingZenBuddhist,right?

RobertGreene: Yes,Iam.

DaveAsprey: Doesthatinfluenceyourwriting?TellmeaboutyourZenBuddhistpracticeand[crosstalk00:19:24].

RobertGreene: Well,ImeanI'vebeeninterestedinitsinceIwasveryyoung,butI'veonlybeenintenselypracticingandmeditatingeverydayandgoingdeepintoitforaboutsevenyears.Ican'saythatthe48LawsofPower,becauseitpredatesthemeditation.I'vebeenveryinfluencedbythephilosophy,bythethinkingformany,many,manyyears.Certainly,sinceIbeganthepractice,whichismostlymeditation,whatwecallzazen,butalsoinvolves...Idogotogroupsessions,andIdoreadalot.Ihaveotherwaysofgettingtheknowledge,butthemainthingiszazenhashadatremendousimpactonmywriting.IthadabigimpactonmasteryandishavinganevenbiggerimpactonthebookthatI'mwritingnow.

DaveAsprey: Iamveryexcitedtoreadyournewbook.There'sgreatwisdomintheBuddhistpractice.EvenBulletproofCoffee,theideaforitcametomeinMountKailashinWesternTibet.Iwenttheretolearnhowtomediatefromthemasters.There'sdefinitelyaconnectiontheretothe[eco-awareness00:20:31]teachingsthatyou'vebeenstudying.

RobertGreene: Yes,yes.Theotherthingisit'snotjustbookknowledgethatmatters.It'ssomethingveryexperiential.Inwritingabook,Ifindtheproblemissometimes,whichisforanything,youtendtorelyonclichés,onformulas.You'renotaliveinthemoment.You'renotthinkinginthemoment.You'renotthinkingforyourself.You'rerelyingonsecondhandconceptsthatpeoplehavegivenyou.Thispracticehasshownme,justlikethemanwhoputshimselfinthewater,nearlyasphyxiateshimselfhastaughtmehowtobeveryaliveinthemomentwhenI'mwriting.It'saconstantstruggle.It'shadimpactonmeonmany,manylevels.

DaveAsprey: Okay.Doyoulookathowthewordsfeelwhenyou'rewritingthem?Isthatwhatyoumean?

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RobertGreene: Thenewbook,I'mtryingtocaptureacertainessence,acertaintone.Thebook'sabouthumannature.IhavetobethinkingandreflectingonwhatitisI'mactuallysayinggotoadeeperlevelandconnectingwiththematerialinsteadofrelyingonabstractconcepts.Theotherthing,onamorebasiclevel,isI'maveryaudio-oralperson.I'mliterallymouthingthewordsasI'mwriting.There'saspokencontexttoit,andIhavetohearwhatI'mliterallywriting.

DaveAsprey: ThereasonI'maskingisI'vejustfinishedmythird...Iguessthisis[inaudible00:22:15]?Fourthbigbook,andhopefully,mysecondNewYorkTimesbestsellerwithanyluckcalledHeadStrong.Thisbook,IdictatedmostofitusingthedictationfunctionjustonmyMac.There'ssomething,IthinkthattheBuddhistpracticesat[Wislim00:22:33],soI'mfamiliarwithtalkingaboutanyofthepowerofthespokenwordandeven[omen00:22:37]andthingslikethat.There'ssomethingdifferentwhenyousayit.It'sinterestingbecauseyou'retyping,butyourmouthingasyoutype.WhenI'mwriting,I'mlookingforthesensationinmyphysicalbody.Doesthesentencefeelgood?Doesitgoinwithoutasplash,likeaprofessionaldiver?I'veneverreallyaskedsomeone.Inyourwriting,I'lljusttellyou.Yourwritingisincrediblycomplex.It'sbetterthanmine.Justasawriter,IthinkIwroteaprettydamngoodbook,butno,it'snotatthelevelofyours.Ijustwanttoknowhowyoudoit.

RobertGreene: Well,Idon'tknowhowtoanswerthat,butIcansaythatIdon'tdoanythingelse.Idon't.Idon'thaveotherjobs,really.Idosomespeaking.Idosomeconsulting,butmostly,thisisit.WhatdoIspendmyday?I'mthinking,I'mthinking,I'mthinking.I'mgoingdeeperanddeeperanddeeperintoit.Alotofbooks,quitefrankly,arewrittenbypeoplewhoareverydistracted.Igettheimpressionthatthey'reverydistracted.They'reaprofessorwho'steaching,who'sgradingpapers.Then,tooksixmonthsofftodistillthoughts,butthey'renotreallythere,anditshowsbecausethefirstchapterisgood.Secondchapterisgettingboringandrepetitious.Bytheend,Itotallypetersout.They'redistracted.Idon'tknowwhatitis.Icantellawriterwho'sfocused,who'sreallyinthemoment,who'sreallycapturedwhatthey'retryingtowrite.Therearepeoplearoundtodaywhowoulddothatbrilliantly.Ireadalotofbiographiesformywork,andthere'ssomegreatwritersouttherewhocapturedtheirsubjects.

DaveAsprey: Whoaretwoorthreethatstand-out,justoffthetopofyourhead?Twoorthreewriterswhoyouthinkdon'treadthebooksjusttolookattheirstyle.

RobertGreene: Well,RobertCarowouldbeontopofthelistforbiographies.TheLyndonJohnsonbooksnowheavily-researched,devoteshiswholelifetoit.That'sall.HereallyisbasedonotherbooksonRobertMoses,etcetera,butthelevelofintensefocusthatyoucantellwhenyou'rereadingit,butalsothefactthatheknowsthesubject.Forinstance,inmybookonstrategy,myversionoftheArtofWar,whichisthe33StrategiesofWar.TheheroofthatbookisNapoleonBonaparteforme.IcalledhimtheMozartofWarfare.Hewasagenius,thefirst10yearsofhiscareer,ageniusstrategist.Nobodyelsecancomparetohim,and

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Igavemyselfthetask.Whatmadehimmorebrilliantthanothers?NoneofthewritersIreadeverreallyansweredthatsimplequestion.Whatwasthesinglesourceofthisman'sgenius?

Now,ittookmeawhile.Iread12biographies.Ireada1,200-pagebookonjusthismilitarycampaigns.Ifeltlikethroughthat,IcametoanunderstandingthatthegeniusofNapoleonwashehadahighly-organizedbrain.Hecouldassimilatemassiveamountsofinformationbeforetheadventofcomputers,andhecouldorganizeitinhisbrain.Whenitcametimetoplanastrategyortoadaptastrategyinthemiddleofabattlefield,themanhadmoreinformationthathecouldaccessinhisbrain.Itwasbrilliantlyorganized.Nobodyelsereallyeversaidthat.Imeanpeoplealludedtoit.Peoplealludedtoit,buttosaythatinasimplesentencebecauseifyouthinkaboutit,theapplicationisamazing.Thatisahighly-creativeskill.SomethingthatcanmakeanybodyaNapoleonistobeabletolearnfromthat,toknowthatorganizingyourthoughtsisaverypowerfultechnique.Anyway,togetbacktoyourquestion,throughresearchandthinking,IdugdeeperthanIthinkalotofotherpeopledidonthatparticularsubject.

DaveAsprey: YoumusthavereadRobertAsprin'sbiographyofNapoleonasoneofyour12books.Ishefamiliar?

RobertGreene: Isthatarelative?Isthatarelative?

DaveAsprey: Yes.He'smygreatuncle.

RobertGreene: Ihavethatbook.Yes,Ihaveit.

DaveAsprey: Yes,Ibetyouwould.He'scrazy,crazygreatuncle.Helivedforfiveyearsinwhateverregionhewaswritingabookabout.Allhistoryandgettoknowallthepeople,visitallthesitesandjustobsessivelikeAsperger'srunsinmyfamily.Idon'tknowifhehaditornot,butsuperdetailedwork.

RobertGreene: Isthisyourfatherorgrandfather?

DaveAsprey: He'smyuncle,sogreatuncle.

RobertGreene: Mm-hmm(affirmative),okay.

DaveAsprey: Yes,hewouldhavebeenlikemygrandfather'sbrother.

RobertGreene: Oh,Idefinitelyreadthebook.It'sveryfamiliar.I'msureitwasgood.

DaveAsprey: Yes,Imeanyou'vereadprobablymorebooksthanmewhichisalot.Theyallcometogetherforme,butanyhow,IwasjustintriguedwhenIrealizedyou'vedugthatdeep.Youhadtohavereadthatbook.Allright,there'sanotheronequickstoryaboutorganizingthoughts.Therearedifferentpeoplewhowill

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teach.JimKwikisagoodfriendwhoteachesspeedreading.He'shadalotofHollywood,alotofCEOs,thatkindof-

RobertGreene: That'ssofunny.Ifindthatalwaysfunny.IcollectthesethingswherethenameKwikisintospeedreading.

DaveAsprey: Isn'titgreat?

RobertGreene: There'ssomanyexamplesofthat.I'vegottoputthatinmylist.Anyway,goahead.

DaveAsprey: Yes,K-W-I-K.

RobertGreene: Oh,oh,oh,Isee.Ithoughtitwas...

DaveAsprey: Yes,butstill,itmatches.

RobertGreene: Yes,yes,yes.

DaveAsprey: Hedoesthissuperherothing.HetaughtWolverineandalltheX-mencast,justlikeafantastichumanbeing.Heteachessomestufflikethat,butI'velookedathowIdo.Sometimes,whenI'mdoingbiohackingthings,forfiveyears,IrantheWebandInternetEngineeringProgramattheUniversityofCaliforniawhentheinternetwasbeingbuiltthewayweknowittoday.Iwasteachingengineerswhoareworkingthenextthingsthatweregoingtohappen.Everynight,fournightsaweek,Iwoulddothisfortwoorthreehoursafterwork.Iwouldsitdownoverdinner,andIwouldreadthelatesttradeandtechmagazines.Iwouldhavetoassimilatetheinformation,alotofitin45minuteswhileeatingasaladintoateachableclass.Ididthisforfiveyears.

RobertGreene: Wow.

DaveAsprey: Tothisday,Ibelievethatthatabilitytoassimilateinformationhashelpedmesomuchbecausepeopleaskmequestions.I'mlike,"Oh,"andinthememorystructure,Iknowwhatitlookslike.It'slikea3-Dweirdthinginmyhead.Idon'twanttoholdmyselfoutasanexampleofexcellencethere,butIseemtobeabletothinkabouthackingthehumanbodyinawaythat'sdifferentthanmostpeople.Theyoftenthinkthatthatisjustlikedrinkingfromafirehoseuntilithurt.Then,doingitoverandoverprobablyhelpedmeinmycareer.

RobertGreene: Oh,I'msure.I'msureithas.Yes.

DaveAsprey: Allright.There'sanotherlawfrom48LawsofPowerI'dliketoaskyouabout.It'sonethatsays,andthisisonlywhatIrememberoffthetopofmyhead,whichwas,"Tocreateloyalty,makeanenemy."Imighthaveparaphraseditwrong.Doesthatsoundlikeonethatmakessense?

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RobertGreene: Well,lawnumbertwoisneverputtoomuchtrustinfriends,andIthinkit's,"Learntouseenemies."Somethingtothateffect.

DaveAsprey: Thisisonewherethegistofitwasifyouwanttogetsomeoneclosetoyou,youalienatethem.Then,youaskthemforhelp,andbecausetheyhelpyou-

RobertGreene: Yes,that'slawnumbertwo.

DaveAsprey: Okay,cool.

RobertGreene: Yes.

DaveAsprey: IhadaguyinmycareerwhoperceivedthatIslightedhim,buthewantedmyknowledgeonhis[team00:30:15].Hesatmedowninhisofficeandbasicallysaid,"Ican'tfireyoubecauseyoudon'tworkforme,butI'mgoingtodriveyouintotheground."Essentially,"Itwasniceworkingwithyou.You'repersonanongrata."Thisguywastwolevelsupintheorgfromme,soit'sbasicallylikeadeaththreatfromaCEOlevelexecutive.I'mshakingalittlebit,butIhaveagoodboss.Idogoodwork,soI'mjustnotgoingtoworryaboutthis.Literally,forsixweeks,hewouldwalkpassedmeinthehallwayandlooktheotherway.Ididn'tknowwhattodowiththis.

Then,sixweekslater,toatee,hecomesandasksmeforhelp.Without48LawsofPower,Ifeltthatreally,hewastotallyplayingme.Itwaslikeworkingtobringmeintohissphere,right?Itwasappliedbrilliantly,andthisisoneoftheMachiavellianguysthatIevermet.Actually,we'restillfriends.There'smutualrespect,andIcometohishouseandallthat,butthatsticksout.Ifthatrulehadn'tbeenwritten,I'mtellingyou,Iwouldhavewalkedintoachainsaw.

RobertGreene: Well,it'sbasichumanpsychology.

DaveAsprey: Yes.

RobertGreene: YoucanunderstandIevenonaseductionlevel.Ifsomeoneistoofriendlywithyouandtoooutgoingandwantstopleaseyou,youinitiallyhavealevelofnotmuchrespectforthem.Theyseemtobetryingtoohard.They'retooaccessibletoyou.There'saninsecuritythatyousense,butiftheoppositehappens,andthey'replayinghardtoget,andtheyseemtonotlikeyou,andtheyseemtobedistant.Ithinkit'schimpanzeebraintakingover,butthere'sanelementof,"Wow.Maybesomething'swrongwithme.MaybeIhavetotryandpleasethatperson."

Anyway,whateverisgoingoninyourbrain,themomentthatpersonturnsitaroundandcomestoyou,yourespecthim.There'salittlebitofawe.You'recompletelymovedbythereversalthatthey'resuddenlynowinterestedinyou.You'rereadytoeatoutoftheirhand.Ifyoucouldjustapplythatlikethismanappliedtoyou,thinkofthepowerthatyouhaveinanofficeorasituation,at

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leasttonotmakeyourselfsuchaperson-pleaser,whichactuallyturnsalotofpeopleoff.It'sjustbasedonelementalpsychologythatIthink300yearsago,peoplemostlyunderstood.

DaveAsprey: Somethingshifted.MaybeithastodowithjustlikesonFacebookandretweetsorsomething,butitseemslikethat'salittlebithardertodoonsocial.Doyouthinksocialmediachangedthe48LawsofPower?

RobertGreene: No.Nothingchangesthe48LawsofPower.

DaveAsprey: Well-said.

RobertGreene: Inmynewbook,Itryandsay,"Look,humannaturehasbeeninplace,"well,youcan'treallysaythebeginning.Icouldgomaybeamillionyearsago.Icouldgofurther,butlet'sjustsay20,000yearsago.There'salotofhistorythere,alotofgenerationsofthingsgoingonwherethishumannatureisbiological,andit'scultural.Theculturalaspectisnotjustthepresentculturalmomentyoulivein.Itgoesbackthousandsofyears.Whenyoutakehumannature,andyoucreatetheinternet,whathappensisinthebeginning,peoplearegoing,"Wow,you'verevolutionizedtheworld.Everythinghaschanged.Everything'sgoingtobecommunication,creativity,freedomofexpression,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah."Whathappens?Afterthree,four,five,tenyears,humannaturetransformstheinternetintowhat?Anythinghumanhasalwaysbeen.Makingmoney,powermoves,trolls,yellingandarguing,irrationality.Itbecomesagardenfullofalloftheweedsofhumannaturethatwerethereinthetimeofthebible.Socialmediahasnotchangedthat,andyou'reaskingabouttheaspectofcreatingfriendsandenemy-typedynamic.Thatwouldstillworkonsocialmedia.

DaveAsprey: Itstillworks.Whatdoesthe48LawsofPowerpredictonecoulddowithtrolls?

RobertGreene: Well,trollsexistinreallife.

DaveAsprey: Theydo,absolutely.They'rebulliedinhighschool.Now,they'reanotherboostupontheworld,right?

RobertGreene: Yes,andIcalltheequivalentofatrollinabosssituationiswhatIcallthepsychoticboss.It'snotmewhomadeitup.It'sawell-knownmean,butthepsychoticbossisbasicallysomebodythatanythingyoudoisgoingtopissthemoff.Youtryandpleasethem,theydon'tlikeyou.Youtryandpushawayfromthem,theydon'tlikeyou.They'vegotissues,andit'sallaboutpowerandtorture,andthey'resosadistic.Whatyouneedwithapsychoticbossisyouneedemotionaldistance.Youneedtonottakethingspersonally.Ifyou'retrappedinthis,okay,you'vegottodealwithit,butifyoucangetout,quityourjob.Islifeworthgettingenmeshedinthisproblem?Whenyou'redealingwithatrollontheinternet,walkaway.It'snotworthit.Youknowtheoldbiblesaying."Arguingwithafoolwillmakeyouafool."Youbecomeafoolbytryingtoargue

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withthemandgetthemtochangeyourmind.Walkawayfromtrolls.Don'tfeedthetrolls,aswesay.

Ifyoucan't,ifyou'reenmeshedinthem,then,youneedthatzensamuraiabilitytoemotionallydistanceyourself.Releasealloftheemotionsandthedrama.Lookattheminasubjectiveamanneraspossible.Seethatthey'reirrational.They'vegotdeepproblems.They'reveryunhappy,etcetera.Ifyougetthatdistancefromit,then,youcantorturethemback.Youcangivethe-

DaveAsprey: That'sdark.

RobertGreene: Oh,Idon'tcare.Well,theydeserveit.Theydeserveit.Youcangivetheperfectcomebackthatwillreallygetintotheirskin.Idon'tdoitasmuchasIusedto,butonFacebookorwhatever.Idon'tdomuchTwitter,butFacebook,yougetthosetrolls.IjustlovesayingsomethingthatIknowwillirritatethefuckoutofthem.Youcanonlydothatifyou'renotemotionallyinvestedintheargument.

DaveAsprey: Yes.Iusedtogetgreatpleasurefrompushingtrollbuttonslikeyou.There'sanarttoitthatismean,butIfoundthateventhoughIhaveemotionaldistancefromit,eventually,myegolikedittoomuch,soI[crosstalk00:36:58].

RobertGreene: Ofcourse,it'sbetter.It'sbettertodisengageandnotdealwiththem.Idealwiththem.

DaveAsprey: Youhavethepleasureinjustonelittlesentencecausingfountainsof...

RobertGreene: Oh,youcan't.Whydenythatpleasuretoyou?Lifeisshort.That'sfine.

DaveAsprey: It'slike,"Youcanhavecheesecake,oryoucouldbaitthetrolls."Itmightbemorefuntobaitthetrolls.

RobertGreene: Yes,yes.Iagree.

DaveAsprey: Allright.That'shilarious.Now,youdotalkaboutmasteringyouremotions.OneofthethingsIworkonifatrollactuallydoespushmybuttonsisIworkonfeelingcompassiontowardsthem.It'slike,"Okay,thispersonactuallywasabused.That'swhytheybelievethateveryoneisouttoscamthem.Everyone'souttoharmthemorstealfromthem."Basically,that'swhythey'remeanbecausetheirmomprobablybeatthemorsomethingsimilar.Itmaynothavebeendomesticabuse,butsomethingbadhappenedtothatperson.They'recarryingthescarsofitandtheirtrauma.Thatallowsmetodisengageandseebothsidesofthisandrealizewhatthey'resayinghasnothingtodowithme.

RobertGreene: Well,that'sright.

DaveAsprey: Yes.Okay,Ihavetherareandgreatfortunetorunaneurosciencelabandtobeabletogluestufftomyhead.I'vetraveledtoTibet.I'vemeditatedinCambodia.

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I'vedoneAyahuascainSouth...Okay,I'vedonemywork,right?Mostpeopledon'thavethetimeandeffort,ormaybetheydidn'tneedasmuchworkasIdidbecauseIusedtobeanangryweirdguy.Now,I'mjustweird,notangry.What'sanaveragepersonlisteningtothisisgoingtogo,"Howthehelldoyoudisengagefromtheabusiveboss,fromthepeoplewhoaretrollingyouoverandover?"Doyouhavearecipe,amasteryperspectiveongettingcontroloveryourownemotionswhensomeone'spushingyourbuttons?

RobertGreene: Yes,Ido.Imeanwecouldspendthreehoursonthatsubjectalone.ThethingisItryandtellyouinMastery,andithastodowithhowthehumanbrainworks.Youcanmasteranythingifyou'repatient,andyougothroughaprocess.Youtakebasicsteps.Ifyouwanttolearnthebicycle,andyou'refouryears,youknowyou'regoingtohavetodotrainingwheels,atricycle.You'llgetthere.You'llfallafewtimes,butyou'llgetthere.Masteringyouremotionsisnodifferentfromlearningtorideabicycleorswimmingoranykindofskill.It'sgoingtorequirepatience,whichofcourse,ishardtodevelopinthebeginning.It'sgoingtorequiregoingthroughaprocessandnotgettingsoaheadofyourself.Youhavetosay,"Youhavetotakebabysteps."Ihaveideasinmanyofmybooks,includingMasteryandinmynewbookabouthowyoucantakethesebabysteps,sothatyoulearn."Oh,Ididthistoday.Iwasabletodistancemyself.Igotarewardforit.Wow.Okay,Icandomore."

Whatthatwillmeanisinjustasimplescenario,inaseduction-likescenario,you'rejuststartingtodateagirl.You'reallanxiousandinsecure.Yourfirstthingistocallherrightawayortexther.Okay,trainyourselftowait24hoursbeforeyoucall.Calmyourselfdown,andseewhathappenstoyou.Asimilarprocess,whichhappenstomeallthetime.Ithappenstoalotofotherpeople.It'stheangrye-mailortheangrywhateveritis.You'resopissedoff.You'reinthemoment.Youhavenoperspective.You'reblowingsomethingsmallintosomethinglarge.Okay.Wait24hoursandwhathappens?Youwakeupthenextdayandyougo,"Wow,man.Itwasn'tsuchabigdeal.WhatwasIthinking?"You'lllearnthatwithtime,yougainaperspectivethatyoudidn'thaveinthemoment.Youcangothroughtheseexercisesinallsortsofways.

Inoneofmybooks,IbelieveintheWarbook,ItalkaboutJosephStalin.Youthinkyouhaveabadboss.Well,youtryworkingforJosephStalinwhereonewrongword,andyou'redead,okay?ItalkinthebookaboutafamouscomposernamedDmitriShostakovich,agreatcomposer,amusicwhohadtopaycourttostallinandpleasehimandwasconstantlyrunningafoul.Ifyourantwoafoul,he'dbesenttothelaborcamps,andhewoulddie.Hewentthroughamentalstrategyof,"WhenI'minfrontofJosephStalin,Ithinkofhimasachild.Thisisafour-year-oldinfrontofmewhohadtositonthetoilet.Hismotherhadtohelphimwipehimself,"etcetera.Pardonmylanguage.Hewaspotty-trained.Idon'tknowifhewasgoingthroughthisprocess,butbasically,hedemythologizedhim.

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Hebroughthimdowntothelevelof,"He'sjustahumanbeing.He'snotthisscary,intimidatingman.Hewasachildonce."He'sveryinsecure,andallowedhimtonotembroiled.Ofcourse,herealizedthedangerthatifheshoweddisrespect,hewouldalsoendupdead.Hecouldn'tgotoofarwiththat,butitallowedhimtonotgetemotionalinthemoment.Now,wecantakemanyways,gimmickstodothatfortheparticularscenariothatyou'rein,butyouwanttobetakingbabystepsandgettinglittlerewardseverydaytoseethepowerthatyoucanhaveonadailybasis,bylearningtodetachyourself.Youdon'twanttodoitfromeverything.Youhaveyourfamily.Youhaveyourchildren,yourlovedones.Youalsohavetolearnwhenisthemomenttoattachyourself?It'saskilllikeanythingelse.

DaveAsprey: It'soneoftheprimaryskillsthatI'vetrainedneurologicallyonmyself.It'ssomethingwecalltheneurofeedbackaugmentedresetprocesswhereyousitthere,andyoulookatyourbrainwaves.Youseewhichthingscausethemtobasicallystopbeingfunctional.Then,yougo,"Oh,that'swhatitfeelslike."Then,there'saresetpracticeyougothroughtoactuallycutthatoff.Icouldlearntobenon-reactiveinthefaceof...Ihadaboardmeetingonce,andtheboardroomwaslike,"Ishouldbeseeinganxietyinyourightnow."Ilookedathimandsaid,"Thisisanxiety."I'mlike,"Okay.We'lljustdealwithwhateverthesituationis,butwedon'thavetodealwithitwithanemotionalresponseifthingswillwork,ortheywon'twork.Eitherway,noone'sgoingtodie.

RobertGreene: Well,Ifindthatthisisapplicableineverysituation,butthisabilitytogiveyourself12hoursor24hoursissosimple.

DaveAsprey: Yes.

RobertGreene: Youwillseeimmediatelythechangewithinyouovertimewhenyoudon'treact.Youcangetotherpeopletohelpyoudothat.Youcangetotherpeopletonothaveyousendthate-mail.IwilldothatwithpeoplethatIconsultwith.It'ssosimple,anditstartsyouonthepathtodoing,tomastery.

DaveAsprey: Forpeoplelisteningtothiswhoaremaybeearlierintheircareer,ifIhadknownWhatRobertGreenejustsaidrightthereabout,"Don'tsendtheangrye-mail,"Ihavelost,andImeanthis,hundredsofthousandsofdollarsbecauseofangrye-mails.Iwouldn'thavelostthatjob,orIwouldhavegottenpromoted.Duringthelay-off,Iwouldn'thavebeentheonelaidoff.Thatwas800,000inthatone.Whathappensthere,forme,wasIwouldstayuplateatnightbecausethat'sthetimeI'm...(MichaelBruce00:44:38]callsitawolf.Igetmyrealproductive,creativestufflateratnightwhennoonebothersyou.Bytheway,forpeoplewhoarelike,"Oh,myGod.Hedoesn'twakeupearly."Theearlybirdworksforthelatebird,justsowegetthatrightthere,butthat'snotalwaystrueeither.Iwouldstayuplate,andIwouldwritethesee-mails,andbecauselikeyou,feedingtrollsisgood.Imaybeusealittleinflammatorylanguage.Myegoisengaged.Iwasangrierandthoughttheydidn'trespectme.Whoevertheheckmessagesthoseareplayinginmyhead.

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Then,thenextmorning,bythetimeIwakeupandgotowork,there'sfiresburningeverywhere.Itwasbecauseofmyangrye-mails."IguessIshouldn'thavedonethat,"andmymentorsarelike,"Dave,yougottostop."Then,youdon'tknowit.Justlikeyousaid.Ifinallylearneditinmymid-30's.It'slike,"I'mjustnotgoingtosendangrye-mails."Youjustpickupthephone,andyoutellthem.Then,allofasudden,it'snotanangrye-mailanymore,butgods,theadviceyoujustoffered,there'shalfamillionpeoplewhoaregoingtohearthis.Don'tsendangrye-mails.Whateveryoudo.

RobertGreene: Right,right.Ihavebeendoingthisforalongtime.Istillhavetogothroughthat.Istillwriteangrye-mails,andoneoutof10times,Iwillactuallysendit.Iwillregretit,soit'sanongoingprocessyounevercompletelymasteredbecauseyou'reahuman,becauseyou'vegotthatreptilianpartofthebrainstemorwhateveritis.We'reemotionalcreatures.You'renevergoingtocompletelymasterit,butgettingpartwaythereisalot.

DaveAsprey: Theysaythepriceoffreedomiseternalvigilance.

RobertGreene: Yes.

DaveAsprey: Thatgoesdoublyforwhenyou'rewatchingthategoinsideofyoutowhenitsaidinyoure-mails.Here'sanotherquestionforyoubecauseyoustudiedbothMasteryand48LawsofPower.Ibelieve,andIwanttoknowifyoubelievethisaswell,andI'mreallycurious.Ibelievethatatourcore,wearewiredtobekindtoeachother.Whenyouremoveallthebadprogramming,allthebadprogramming,allofthetrauma,yousatisfybasicneedslikefood,shelter,water,thatpeople'scoremotivationsactuallyhelp.Doyousharethatperspective?Doyouthinkthatthere'ssomelayerofpeoplewhoarelike,"No,Ijustwantstuff?"

RobertGreene: Well,it'sagreatessentialquestionthattellsyoualotaboutaperson.It'sundeniablethatwe'resocialanimals,thatwebecamewhoweare,sittingtodayonaSkypephonecall,havingevolvedbeyondotherprimatesbyvirtueofbeingsocialanimalsthatknowhowtocooperate.Thisgoesbackmillionsofyears.Atthesametimethough,assomebodywho'swritingabookabouthumannature,thereisanotherelement.There'ssomethingdoubleofthehuman[psyche00:47:38].Thereisanaggressiveside.Thereisaside,Icallitinmynewbook,Ijustusedthis.IhavesymbolswhenI'mwritingchapters,andthischapteriscalled,"Take"becauseitjustepitomizestomethisaspectofhumannaturewhereweneverfeellikewehaveenough.Wehavetotakemore.WehavestoriesofveryprimitiveculturesarrivingontheislandofNewZealandanddestroyingallofthelarge[atemfona00:48:08]thereandeatingtheirwaythroughtheenvironment,andbasicallycreatingecologicalcatastrophe10,000yearsago.

There'ssomethingaboutthehuman.Ifeellikeithastodowithourweakness,physically,comparedtootheranimalswhereweareinsecure,whereweneverfeellikewehaveenough.Anaggressive,violentedgetousthatcanmakeus

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antisocial.Atthesametimethatwearethemastersatcooperating,thereissomethingthatwasputintothemachinery,abug,thathastheoppositepotential.It'sthesourceforwhowearetoday,andwhywe'reontheverge,perhaps,ofdestroyinglifeontheplanet.Idon'tfeellikeyoucanignorethatdestructivesideofhumannature,andyoucannotignoretheempatheticsideofhumannatureandtheconscioussideofhumannatureandtheabilitytoovercomesomeoftheseirrationalanimalistic-typedesiresthatwehave.Ithinkit'sjustthatwe'recomplex,soIwouldputthosetwoelementsside-by-side,anddependingonwhichprevails,youhaveadifferentkindofhumanbeingoradifferentkindofsocialgroup.

DaveAsprey: Very,verylearnedanswer.Howdoesthatworkwhenyouapplythatthinkingtothedifferentmentalitiesofpower,whichokay,peoplearenecessarilypower-seekingorpower-sharingversusmastery?Youtalkaboutmasteryandpowerasdifferentthings.Youhavedifferentbooksaboutthem.Explainthedifferencebetweenthetwo.Doyouthinkthateitherofthosearecorehumannatures?

RobertGreene: Well,thepowerisdefinitelyacorehumannature.PeoplehavewrittenbooksaboutchimpanzeesandhowMachiavelliantheyare.Youcouldprobablytakesixofthe48lawsandshowthatchimpanzeesactuallyusetheselawsofpower.I'mrememberthe[series00:50:14]ofit.Theyneveroutshinethemaster.

DaveAsprey: Yes,Ibelieveyou,yes.

RobertGreene: It'sdefinitelywiredintous.WeareaMachiavelliananimal,andourprimateancestors,particularlychimpanzeesareveryMachiavellian.Wearealsothecreaturethatknowshowtomasterthings.They'rejustdifferentsidesofthe[psyche00:50:37].Ijusttrytotellpeople,"Weliveinacomplexworldwhereyouhavetoknowhowtobesocialandpolitical."Now,IinterviewedPaulGrahamforMastery.Iknowyou'reprobablyfamiliarwithPaulGraham.Heissomeonewho'sobviouslybecomeverypowerful,andhe-

DaveAsprey: ExplainforourlistenerswhomaynotknowwhoPaulGrahamis.Ijustwanttobepolitetothem,incasesomeonedoesn'tknow.

RobertGreene: Well,originally,inthe90's,heinventedthefirstplacetoshopontheinternet,whichhesoldtoYahooandmadequitealotofmoney.Then,heretiredandbecameoneofthefirstreallypopularbloggersinSiliconValleyandwritesalotaboutpowerandwealthandotherinterestingissues.Then,hestartedYCombinatorabout,what?10yearsago?

DaveAsprey: Yes.

RobertGreene: Idon'tknowhowlongago.

DaveAsprey: That'saboutright.

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RobertGreene: Hesoldandisnolongerinvolved.Idon'tknowwhathislatestventureis.IinterviewedhimforMasteryaboutfiveyearsago.YCombinatoristhisultimateincubatorschool,schoolforentrepreneurs,inwhichheteachesyouhowtomakeabrilliantstart-up.Inreturn,ifitworks,hegetsashareofwhateveryoucreate.It'sworthbillionsofdollars,andhesolditto,Ithink,SamAltmanisnowthenewCEO.

DaveAsprey: Yes.

RobertGreene: Anyway,sohe'sabrilliantguy.Hewasoriginallyahacker,studiedComputerProgramming,artificialintelligence,brilliant,brillianthacker,computerprogrammingguy.Anyway,PaulGrahamisterribleatthepoliticalsideofstuff.Headmitsit.Hehatesit.Hereadthe48LawsofPower,buthesayshejusthatedit.Hehatedpolitics.Itwaswhyhecouldn'tbeanacademia.Itwasruininghiscareer.Hejustwantedtobebyhimself,andheknowsit.Heknowsthatit'saweaknessofhis,andyoucan'tsurviveeveninSiliconValley,evenwithjustyourcomputingskillsifyoucan'tgetalongwithpeople.Whatdoeshedo?Well,hishackishedependsonhiswife.

DaveAsprey: Exactly.

RobertGreene: Hiswifeisactuallybrilliantindealingwithpeople.She'sverysympathetic,veryempatheticperson,andheletsherhandleitall.Theinterestingthingisheknowsthatthat'shisweakness,andhecoveredfrohisweakness.Youcannotescapethesocialelement.Youneedthe48LawsofPower.Ontheotherhand,ifthat'stheonlythingyoureadorfollow,you'regoingtobeaconartistbecauseallyoudealinlifeisillusion.It'screatingtheillusionofpower.Youknowhowtomakeyourselflookbigandgreater.Youuseunpredictability,law17orso,whichisDonaldTrump'slaw.Thepowerofbeingunpredictableandhowitintimidatespeople.Youcanbegoodatallthesethings,butit'sanall-illusion,really.Ifit'snotbasedonanythingreal,youhavetoskill.Youhavenotalent.Youhavenocreativeenergy.Itwon'tgetyou,ultimately,veryfar.

Mastery,IcreatedthatbecauseIfeellikealotofyoungpeoplehavelostconnectiontothewisdomthatthebrainactuallygroundsyouinthebrainhimself.Howwelearn,howwedevelopskills,andthepowerthatyougetonceyoureachalevelof10,000,15,000,20,000hoursisvery,veryreal.ThepowerofaBobbyFischercomparedtosomeonewho'sjuststartingoutplayingchessisunbelievable.Thinkofthepotentialofthehumanbrainwhenyougettothat20,000-hourpoint.Iwantedtocoverthatsubject,sopeopledidn'tgettheimpressionthatme,RobertGreene,Ibelieveit'sallaboutpowerandpoliticsandbullshit.No.Youreallydoneedtomasterwhateveritisthatyoudo.

DaveAsprey: Thatsaid,ifyouwanttobecomeamasterofyourcraft,ifyoudon'tknowthe48LawsofPower,itwilltakeyoualotlongertobecomeamasterbecausepeoplewillkeepthrowingstuffinfrontofyou,speedbumpsthatappearfornoreasonyouperceive.Ineverconsciouslyusedthe48LawsofPower.I'msureImight

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haveaccidentallydoneit,butIdon'tusethose.Asanawarenesstooltoknowwhenyou'rebeingplayed,ohmygod,thiswaslikeafirewallforme,sociologically.LikePaulGrahamthere,Ididn'tnativelyhavethesocialskills.Iwas300pounds.Ihadcognitivefatigueduringsomeofthese.That'slikehackingthehumanbodything.Losing100poundswascool.Then,raisingmyIQandallthatstuff,butI'vegotalotmoresocialskills.Iactuallymakeeyecontact,allthatstuffnow.IusedtobeAsperger'sdirectionalstuff.Eventothisday,therearesomesocialskillsthatI'mjustnotgoingtothinkabout.IhaveareallygoodExecutiveadmin,andIhaveasociallyawarewife.

RobertGreene: Right,right,right.

DaveAsprey: WhatI'velearnedasanentrepreneurislook,ifthere'sstuffthatdoesn'tcomenativelytoyou,youneedverybasicproficiency,andyoucanhiretheskills.Ifyoureceiveagiftfromme,andyoumayormaynothave,it'sactuallynotfromme.I'msorry.Anyonewho'sreceivedagiftfromme,Iprobablysignedthebook,butIdidn'tthinktosenditbecausegift-givingisn'tmylovelanguage,toquotetheFiveLoveLanguages.Ididn'teventhinkaboutthat,butIknowI'msupposedtodoit.Ihavesomeonewhothinksaboutitforyou.

RobertGreene: Isee.

DaveAsprey: That'snotaweakness,right?That'sactuallyastrength,butifwe'regoingbacktoourconversationaboutegoandall,alotofpeople,especiallyasthey'reworkingtobecomemasters,theyspendsomuchenergyfocusingontheirweaknesses,insteadoftheirstrengths.Whatdoesyourtakeonmasteryhavetodowithhowtoachievebalancebetweennotbeingatotalidiotinthisperspectiveversusbeingarockstarinthisperspective?

RobertGreene: Well,soIhavesixchaptersinMastery.Chapterfourisonsocialintelligence.I'mtellingthereaderthatsocialintelligenceisaskillthatyoumustdevelop,oryou'regoingtobeintrouble.Thereareacoupleotherskillssuchasyourapprenticeshipandyourabilitytoworkwithamentor.Itisoneamongthreethingsthatyoumustabsolutelylearntobeproficientat.Also,knowingyourcareer.Whatisthe-

DaveAsprey: CanIpauseyouforasecondtheretojustdouble-downonthatoneforlisteners?There'saguysomepeoplehaveheardof,MarcAndreessen.Ifyou'reourage,youallknowwhoMarcis.

RobertGreene: Sure.

DaveAsprey: Marcwrotetheveryfirstwebbrowser,okay?

RobertGreene: Yes.

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DaveAsprey: Iwasthefirstguytosellanythingovertheinternet,andIdidthatbeforeMarcwrotethefirstwebbrowser,andIwasatechjournalist.IreviewedhisbrowserversustheNetscape1.0,okay?MarcAndreessenisworthacabilliondollars.Iamnotveryeconomicallysuccessfulbycomparison.Infact,I'velostmyfortunewhenIwasthatageandhaveworkedforapaycheckeversince.IstillhaveapaycheckbecauseIhaveinvestors,right?ThedifferencebetweenMarcAndreessenandmebackthenisthatIwasarrogantandstupid.TherewasnowayIwouldhavelistenedtoamentor,orIwouldn'thaveapprenticedanywherebecauseIalreadykneweverything.

MarcwalkedovertoJimClarkinSiliconValley,theguywhoranSunMicrosystems,oneofthebigcomputingcompaniesthat'snowdefunctbecauseOracleboughtthem,andwaslike,"Hey,Jim.Canyoutellmehowtodothis?"Marc,inhisgreatwisdom,createdallthesestuffbecausehewouldtakeadvicefromthemasters,andbecauseIwasanarrogantpunkwithtoomuchego,Iwouldn't.Thedifferenceishundredsoftimesdifferenceineconomicoutput,sojustlearnfromthelessonsthatRobertistalkingaboutrighthere.LearnfromthemistakesI'vemade.Thatrulematters.Anyway,keepgoing.Ijustwantedtomakesurethat'sreallyclear.

RobertGreene: Well,yes,yes,soI'mtryingtotellyouhopefully,you'llreadthewholebookbeforeyougooutanddowhateveryou'regoingtobedoinginyourcareer.

DaveAsprey: ThisisMastery,right,thebookyou'retalkingabout?

RobertGreene: Mastery,yes.

DaveAsprey: Okay.

RobertGreene: IwroteawholechapteronsocialintelligencewithinMastery,sayingthatthebrainisanentireorgan.Althoughit'sacontroversialsubject,buttherearen'tseparatecomponentsformasteringcomputerprogrammingandmasteringhowtodealwithpeople.Infact,they'reallintertwined,interconnected.Yourabilitytobesocial,togetalongwithpeople,tohaveempathyactuallyhasaprofoundimpactonyourabilitytosolveeverydayproblems.Theprocessofgettinginsideanotherpersonandthinking,"Wow,"whatisgoingonintheirmindisalmostasimilarprocessto,"Hmm,there'ssomethingintheatmosphere,aparticularchemicalcompoundthatIwanttosolve."Whateveritis,it'saverysimilarmentalprocessofputtingyourselfinsideaphenomenonandthinkingthroughit.Thebrainisaninterconnectedorgan.Youneedtobeabletohavebasicsocialskillsandsocialintelligence,nomatterwhatlevelyou'reat.

Somepeople,itcomesnaturallyto.JessicaLivingston,PaulGraham'swife,yourwife,theydon'treallyneedtobebotheringaboutsocialintelligence.Alotofwomenarelikethis.They'regoodatit.Theyknowit.It'sintheirblood,sotheycanskipchapterfour.Otherpeoplearebrillianthackersandcanlearnthehelloutofsomething,havezerosocialskills.Theyneedtospendalotmoretimeon

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chapterfour.ThegreatpolymathsthatIwasfascinatedwith,peoplelikeDaVinci.Ithinkyou'dhavetoconsiderBenjaminFranklin,onofthegreatpolymathswerebrilliantatthesocialgame.DaVinciwasthemostcharmingmananyoneevermet.BenjaminFranklinwasmasterathumanpsychology.Hehadtolearnit.Hedidn'tstartoutbrilliantatit.Herealizedhewasactuallyquiteweak,andhetrainedhimselftobeanincredibleobserverofpeopleandtojustbasicallystudyandwitnessandobservepeopleinaction.

It'saskill.Youlearntheskillbypracticingit.Toignorethesocialorpoliticalgameisextremelydangerous,asyoudiscoveredinyourlife.Ifyou'resomeonestartingout,you're22yearsold,andyou'reabouttoenteracareerorajob,youhavetopracticebothofthem.Evenifyou'renaturallygiftedatthesocialgame,youstillhavetopracticethem.Whenyou'restartingyourcareer,you'respendingalotoftimeworkingonyourskills,whateverthoseskillsare,andyou'reobservingthepeoplearoundyou.You'reobservingthesocialdynamic.You'reobservingthepowerdynamic.Youlookattheboss,andyousay,"Whydidthismanorwomangettothatplace?What'stheircharacteristics?WhatisthecultureoftheplacewhereI'mworkingat?Dotheyvalueassertiveness,ordotheyvaluecooperation?Whatisthepsychologyofthepeopleinvolved,astheyinterconnectwitheachother?"Youwanttobealiveandsensitivetothat,assensitiveasyouaretotheactualskillsthatyou'rehavingtolearn,whetherit'swritingcopyorhackingorwhatever.That'showIbasicallystructuredMastery.

Beware,woetoyouifyouignoresocialintelligence.

DaveAsprey: There'sahackforthat,atleastthewayIpickedupalotofthat,inadditiontojustpersonaldevelopmentstuff.Ihadpickedupontheimportanceofthisaftergettingmyasshandedtomeafewtimesinmycareerandinmy20's.Istartedgoingtoabusinessnetworkingmeet-upthathappenedeveryThursdaynightontheStanfordcampus.WehavethisthingcalledtheStanfordBarn.Thiswasforearly...Idon'ttheyhadinventedtheworde-commerceyet.WestillcalledourselvestheWebGuild.Thiswasbeforewebmasterswereathing,nowthatthey'remostlygone.WegettogethereveryThursday,andtherewerethesebusinesspeople.Ishowup.I'mthisfatengineeringguy,don'tknowhowtodresslike,"Areyousureit'sokay?"Don'tunderstandanyofthesestuff,andIdidthisfortwoyearseveryThursdaynight,giveortake,justbecauseitwaslikeaculturalanthropologist.Iwaswatchingthesepeople.Ihadnoclue.Finally,Ilearnedhowtointeractandnotjustenterandeatallthegrapes.

RobertGreene: Right,right.

DaveAsprey: Itdidn'tcome,atall,naturally,butifIhadn'tdonethat,Idon'tthinkIcanfunctionthewayIdotodaybecauseforme,thatwasremediallearning,justtogetuptokindergartenlevel.Ithinkalotofpeoplelisteningwhodon'tunderstandorevenlookdownonshmoozingornetworkingorthingslikethat

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know.It'slikethewaybeesdance.Theywiggletheirbutts,andtheysignalthrougheachother.Humanshavesomeofthat.It'sjusthardertosee.

RobertGreene: Well,youbringupaverygoodpoint.Ishouldhavesaidthatearlier.Itisalmostlikeabasicskillthatyoumustdevelop.It'salmostlikewhenweweretalkingaboutwaitingbeforeyousendthatangrye-mail.Simpleexposuretosocialsituationsishowyou'regoingtostartdevelopingtheskill.Ifyouspendalotoftimealone,thatskillatrophies.Thevirtualversionofitisn'tgoodenough.Eyecontactisn'tthesameonacomputer,asitisinfleshandblood.Youneedtobeoutthere,doingwhatyoudid.Yourintuitivewisdomthereissimplyinteractingwithpeople,goingtomoresocialsituations,observingpeople,absorbingtheirenergy,forcingyourselftointeract.Ifyou'reinanoffice,that'showyoupracticetheskillasanactualrealinteractions,notonthecomputer,notonFacebook,etcetera.Youbringupaverygoodpoint.Probablythemostessentialthingthatyoucandoisactually,themoresocialinteractionsyouhave,themoretheskillwillstartnaturallydeveloping.

DaveAsprey: Whatareyourothertoptechniquesfordevelopingmastery?

RobertGreene: Well,Masterybeginschapteronewithoneverysimplething.Ifyoudon'tdochapterone,there'snohopeforyou,I'mafraid.Well,it'strue.Thatischoosingtherightpath,therightcareer,whatIcallyourlife'stask.Icallityourlife'stask,andit'sonemomentwhereImightwaxalittlepoetic,butyou'reaveryuniqueperson.Yoursetofmolecules,yourDNA,there'snobodyelselikeyouever,willeverexistorhaseverexisted.There'ssomethinguniqueaboutwhatyou'reinterestedin.WhatIcallyourprimalinclinations,thesubjectsthatyou'reinclinedtowhenyouwerethree,four,fiveyearsold.Youwanttobeabletoworkwithinthatbasicstrengththatyouhave.Thebrainlearnsatamuchhigherratewhenyou'reemotionallyengaged,whenyouwanttolearn,whenit'ssomethingthatexcitesyou.Ifit'ssomethingthatyouhavetolearn,youabsorbone-tenthoftheinformationthatyouhavewhenyouarealiveandtense."Man,IreallywanttolearnthisbecauseIlovethissubject."

Ifyouchooseacareer,thetypicalscenarioisyoulistentoyourparentsandyourfriends.Yougottolawschoolbecauseyouknowthat'sgoingtomakealotofmoney,butit'snotwhatyoulove.Youcangetprettyfar,butyou'renevergoingtogettomastery.You'renevergoingtolearnattheratethatanEinsteinlearnedwhenherealizedataveryearlyagethathewasobsessedwithPhysicsandobsessedwiththequestionofrelativityandspenddayandnightanddayandnight,thinkingaboutoneparticularproblem.You'renevergoingtolearnatthatoptimumratebychoosingsomethingthatyoudon'tlove.Masterybeginsandendswiththatbecauseifyoufindwhatitis,andtheproblemwithalotofpeopleistheydon'tknowwhatthatis.Findingwhatthatisandcreatingtheperfectnicheforyourselfmakesalltheotherthings,willhappeninanorganicway.ItwillhelpyoutolearnsomeofthethingsIdiscussinthebook,suchastheimportanceoftheapprenticeshipphase,theimportanceofworkingwithamentor,etcetera.

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Ifyoudon'tknowwhoyouare,youdon'tknowwhatyoulove,youdon'tknowwhatyou'regoodat,you'renevergoingtogetthere.Igivemany,manyexamplesonhowtofinditandofpeopleinhistorywhofounditinastrangeway.It'snotlikeyouwakeupandgo,"Oh,Imeanttowritethe48LawsofPower."Lifedoesn'tworklikethat.It'saprocess.You'rediscoveringwhatyouhate.You'rediscoveringthejobsyoudon'twanttodo.You'rediscoveringthewritingthatdoesn'tappealtoyou.Then,eventually,ifyou'realertandself-aware,you'lldiscoverit.That'slikethegistofit.Youdon'tfind...Itcanhappenlaterinlife.Itdoesn'tnecessarilyhavetohappeninyour20's.It'sbetterifithappensinyour20'sbecausewhenyou'reyounger,you'remorecreativeandmoreenergetic.Itcanhappeninyour30'sor40's.Ididn'tstartwritingthe48LawsofPoweruntilIwas37,soittookmeawhiletofigureoutwhatmylife'staskwas.

DaveAsprey: Well,I'mgratefulthatyoudecidedtodothatbecausethatwasareallyimpactfulbook.Yousoldoneandahalfor1.2millioncopiesorsomething.

RobertGreene: Oh,we'regettingclosertotwomillionnow.

DaveAsprey: Oh,totwo?Thereyougo.That'swell-deserved.Forpeoplelistening,youguyshaveheardmeinterview350experts.Maverickscientists,crazygeniuses,authors,teachers,celebrities,afewofthem.Ofallofthem,ifthere'sonlyafewbooksyou'regoingtoread,I'mtellingyou.PickacoupleofRobert'sbooks.Robert,thisisnotjustontheshow.Thisisactuallymygenuinebeliefthere.Youreallywanttochangethetrajectoryofwhat'sgoingtohappeninyourlifeoverthenexthundredyears.Yes,ifyou'reyoung,youhaveaprettygoodchanceoflivingahundredyearsfromhoweverhowoldyouaretoday.Thankyou,technology.Dothis.ReadMastery.Readthe48LawsofPower.Knowwhenyou'rebeingplayed.It'sjustpriceless.Biohackingiscool.Havingcellsthatworkisreallyimportant,soyouhavethewillpowertoapplytheskillsformasteryandallthatstuff,butifyou'rejustwalkingintoinvisiblewallsallthetime,youdon'tknowit,itsucks.Ionlysaythatfrompersonalexperience.Youreallyhelpedmeseesomeofthosewalls,soI'mactuallyjustfullofgratitudethatIgettointerviewyoubecausehowcoolisthat?Ihaveonemorequestionforyou.

RobertGreene: Thankyou.

DaveAsprey: Oh,you'resowelcome.

RobertGreene: Sure.

DaveAsprey: FinalquestionI'veaskedeveryguestontheshow.Ifsomeonecametoyoutomorrow,andtheysaid,"Look,IwanttobebetterateverythingIdo.Iwanttokick-assatlife,"whatarethethreemostimportantpiecesofadviceyouhaveforme?Whatwouldyoudo?Howwouldyoudistillallofthisknowledgeyouhave?

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RobertGreene: Iwouldsayloweryourexpectationsalittlebit.Don'ttryforthat.

DaveAsprey: Justalittlebetter,comeon.

RobertGreene: That'sthe20-year-oldwhothinksthatheorshecanjustbegreatateverything.Youcan'tbecauseit'snothowwe'rewired.Iwantyoutoscaledown.I'mwritingachapterinmynewbook.It'stheLawsofHumanNature,andeachchapterdealswithaslightlynegativequalityinhumannature.ThechapterI'mfinishingnowisongrandiosity.Attheendofthechapter,Italkaboutpracticalgrandiosity.Howtobegrandiose,butinapracticalway.Thepracticalwayistofocusonsomethingsimple.Develop,concentrateyourenergies.Whenthemindisconcentratedandfocused,ithasimmensepowers.Whenit'sdiffusedanddistracted,andthingsthatcanaccomplish80things,it'suseless.Youneutralizeallofthepowersofthebrainthatyouwerebornwith.

DaveAsprey: You'resayingfocusonsomethings?

RobertGreene: Yes.Iwantyouwhenyou're20,22,thatgreatwonderfulage,tosay,"I'mgoingtobeabsolutelybrilliantatthisonething.I'mgoingtomasterthisonething."Inmasteringthisonething,itwillopenuplikethelotusflowerimageinBuddhism.Itwillopenuptofiveor10or20otherthings.PaulGraham,allhemasteredwhenwewas21,22wasprogramming.Hewasjustanabsolutegreatprogrammer.Healsostudiedpainting.Idon'tknowwhyhewasinterestedinart.Itwasasecondthing.Then,yearswentby.Hedidn'tknowwhathewantedtodo,andhelettimegoby.Hewasalittlebitlost.Then,heheardanadontheradio.HewaspaintinginaloftinNewYorkwhenhethoughthewasgoingtobeapainter.HeheardanadontheradioforNetscapeandhowNetscapewasgoingtobethenewfrontier.Peopleweregoingtobuythingsontheinternet.Hegoes,"Shit,man.I'msittinghere,barelymakingaliving,painting.Icanmakeafortune."

Allofthatprogrammingskillsthathedevelopedinhis20's,now,hecouldshiftanddosomethingthatheneverthoughtofwhenhewas23.Hehadtheskilltoexploitthisnewfrontier.Youwanttohaveabasicskillthatyoucannowexploitforwhateveritisthat'sgoingtocomeuponyouinfiveyears,whereyoucansuddenlyseizesomegreatopportunity.Onceyoulearnthatbasicskill,okay,learnasecondoneifyouwant.Learnathirdone,butdon'tgoonuntilyou'veactuallyfirstmasteredthatfirstone.Learntocontrolyourimpatience.Masteryourself.

I'mgoingtogiveyouanadvice.It'smasteryourself.Yourselfwithoutanyhelpissomeonewho'simpatient,insecure.You'relikeafour-year-oldthat'sledoutintotheworldofadults.Youdon'thavewhatisnecessarytosucceedbecauseyouhavenocontroloveryourself.Youthinkyou'regreat,andyou'renotgreat.Youhavenoskill.Youhavenoexperience.Youhavenoknowledge.Getoverit,okay?You-

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DaveAsprey: No,Ilovethis,man.

RobertGreene: Someonehadtosayit.Thisiscool.Youneedtomasteryourself.Youneedtoovercomeallofthesethingsthatyouthinkyou'resogreatat,andyou'renot.Ifyou'regoingtolearnonething,it'sgoingtobeyou'regoingtocontrolyourimpatience.You'regoingtocontrolyourgrandiosity.You'regoingtocontrolalltheotherthings.Youremotionsthattendtoreekhavocintheofficeorwherever.Alltheotherthingsthatyouwant,you'llgetinyour30'sor40's.Ifyoustartoffwhenyou're21andsay,"I'mgoingtogeteverything,man.I'mgoingtoconquertheworld.I'mgoingtobustwhateveritis."Youprobablywon'tgetveryfar.

Ifyoustartfocusingononething,andyou'repatient,andyouloveit,andyou'reexcited,whenyou'reinyour30's,thatorganicallywillhappentoyou.Believeme.Infact,IhavestoryafterstoryofpeopleinhistoryandpeopleIinterviewedforMastery.It'sthepaththatwillleadyoutosomething.Iknowit'snotwhatyouwanttohear.Youwanttohearsomeformulaforgettingeverythingyouwantandbeinghappy,butitdoesn'texist.Ittakeswork.Ittakeswork.

DaveAsprey: Verywell-said.Didwegetthreeinthere?Ithinkthatwasthree.

RobertGreene: Idon'tknow.I'msorry.

DaveAsprey: I'mtryingtocount,butthatwasatleastthree,anditwasallgreatwisdom.DoyoumindifIaskhowoldyouare?

RobertGreene: I'm57.

DaveAsprey: 57.Actually,I'm44,soyou'vegotmorethanadecadeonme.

RobertGreene: Ido.

DaveAsprey: Actually,you'velivedmore,andoneofthethingsthatIdidn'tappreciatewhenIwasyoungisthewisdomofelders.IthinkyoutalkaboutthatalotinMastery.

RobertGreene: Yes.

DaveAsprey: IactuallylearnedthatbecauseIstartedrunningananti-agingnon-profitgroupinPaloAltocalledtheSiliconValleyHealthInstitute.Peopleinmyboardofdirectorswere88yearsold.

RobertGreene: Oh,wow,wow,yes.

DaveAsprey: You'relike,"ThesepeoplearesomuchbetterthanIaminalmosteverything."It'sthevalueofexperience.Likeyousaid,fallingdownandexposureandthingslikethat.Whatprofoundadvice,Robert.EvenbetterthanIhopedthatyou'd[giveus01:16:37].

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RobertGreene: Oh,well,that'sgood.That'sgoodtohear.

DaveAsprey: ThankssomuchforbeingonBulletproofRadio.

RobertGreene: Oh,mypleasure,mypleasure.

DaveAsprey: Forlisteners,youmightnotknowthis.IfyougototheBulletproofwebsiteblog.bulletproof.com,there'stranscriptsforallofBulletproofradio.Youcanactuallydownloadthis,andwhatI'mgoingtodoisI'mgoingtolistallofRobert'sbooksonthereaslinks.WhatIwantyoutodoisjustcloseyoureyesandclickoneofthelinks.

RobertGreene: That'sgood.

DaveAsprey: ItwilltakeyoutoAmazonandreadthatbookifyouhaven'treadanyofthem.IwouldsaymaybetheArtofSeductioniseithermoreorlessinterestingtoyou.Ifyou'remarriedwithkidslikeIam,trustme.TheArtofSeductionmightbemoreimportanttoyouthanitiswhenyou're22anddating.I'mjustsaying.YouguyshaveTinder,allright?Idon't.

RobertGreene: Yes,that'sright.TheArtofSeductionisalsoaboutsocialseduction.

DaveAsprey: Itis,itis.

RobertGreene: Andpoliticalseductionandmarketingseduction.It'sallthesame.

DaveAsprey: Verywell-said.Allright.Whenyournextbookcomesout,IhopetohaveyoubackonBulletproofRadio.

RobertGreene: Iwouldlovethat.Iwouldlovethat.

DaveAsprey: Theweekoflaunch,we'llmakesureeveryonelisteninghearsaboutthebookbecausehonestly,youwereoneof...ThismightsoundlikeI'mkissingyourass,butI'mnot.Inmyexperienceofreadingalotofpersonalgrowth,whichisn'treallyyourcategory,butalotofotherstuff.YouhaveprovidedmorewisdomwithmorerigorthanmostotherauthorsI'vecomeacross.

RobertGreene: Oh,that'sverynice.Thankyou.

DaveAsprey: Yes,soafullendorsementfromBulletproofonRobertGreene'swriting.Youguysshouldreadallofit.

RobertGreene: Wow,thankyou.

DaveAsprey: Robert,Ilookforwardtoournextconversation.

RobertGreene: Oh,metoo,Dave.Thankyou.Thatwasgreat.Itwasgreat.Ireallyenjoyedit.